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Garage => Mechanicals => Topic started by: raueda1 on 29 July 2019, 05:51 PM

Title: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 29 July 2019, 05:51 PM
Can anybody confirm whether or not the 6.9 starter is unique to the 6.9?  Or same as 450SE or other models?  Thx,
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: slfan on 29 July 2019, 06:23 PM

It os my understanding that both the Starter and Waterpump are unique to the M100 engine.  Nevertheless, it is best to confirm this via the part numbers.

Regards,

AM
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Jed on 29 July 2019, 07:14 PM
You are correct.  The starter is not the same as the 450SE, or SEL for that matter.

Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 29 July 2019, 09:15 PM
It's similar to the 6.3 M100 but thats it as far as I know.

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 30 July 2019, 05:43 AM
There are rebuilt ones on eBay last time I checked.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 08:55 AM
There are rebuilt ones on eBay last time I checked.
There are indeed.  Quite confusing though.  One style has 4 bolt holes and is listed for the M100 engines.  2 are offered, one for $400 the other for $2200.  ????!!?!!!  The other style has 2 bolt holes and is claimed to fit various MB engines including 6.9.  These are, of course, much cheaper. 

I was hoping to save some time by ordering one so I can do the job in 1 shot but now I have little confidence that it will be right one.  Looks like I will indeed have to go by part number - though that's always the best thing anyway.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: rumb on 30 July 2019, 09:04 AM
One could take it to an electric motor repair shop and have rebuilt. I see the bendix. On fleabay from time to time.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 30 July 2019, 10:05 AM
The 400 buck seller looks like a solid outfit. I’d give them a go.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 30 July 2019, 04:48 PM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 05 August 2019, 09:41 AM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.

Where is the starter on this car? I dug through the Microfilm, but kept getting frustrated with it, and couldn't find the info. I'm suspecting from your commentary (and my visual inspections thus far) that it's somewhere on the bottom of the engine?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 05 August 2019, 10:02 AM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.

Where is the starter on this car? I dug through the Microfilm, but kept getting frustrated with it, and couldn't find the info. I'm suspecting from your commentary (and my visual inspections thus far) that it's somewhere on the bottom of the engine?
It's on the lower side of the block on the passenger side, at least on LHD.  It's quite hard to see from the top, you need to get underneath.  It might be on opposite side on RHD cars.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 05 August 2019, 12:57 PM
Got starter out.  It was fried, fried, fried.  Motor itself (without solenoid) drew current but didn't spin.  I needed to turn the shaft by hand for it to run.  It them slowly spooled up in speed.  No obvious collateral damage, like broken ring gear teeth.

I ended up ordering the $400 unit.  Part number actually matches mine, a pleasant surprise.  I may try get my old one rebuilt and put that up for sale.

Finally, it's worth noting that removal was actually quite easy despite some of the horrendous procedures lurking around the web.  The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!  After removing the 2 bolts it was easy to slide/rotate the starter into a position where the cables could be removed.  With the steering wheel turned hard right there's enough space to slide the starter through all the steering linkages.  It wasn't necessary to remove the steering damper as some have suggested, at least not on my car.  This was done up on a lift with wheels hanging.  On jack stands or wheels not hanging I can see how it would be very much harder.

Where is the starter on this car? I dug through the Microfilm, but kept getting frustrated with it, and couldn't find the info. I'm suspecting from your commentary (and my visual inspections thus far) that it's somewhere on the bottom of the engine?
It's on the lower side of the block on the passenger side, at least on LHD.  It's quite hard to see from the top, you need to get underneath.  It might be on opposite side on RHD cars.
Ugh, fun. I'll add that to the list of things I need to do this winter.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 27 April 2020, 01:33 PM
Yes, I know, I'm bringing back an old thread, but since I'm finally getting around to doing this myself, I thought it wiser to update this thread, and keep the pertinent info here, rather than start another thread and reference this one.

The hard part is the upper bolt, which is very tight.  It's too tight for a socket.  An open end wrench works but you can only rotate about 12 degrees at a time before repositioning, so it's very tedious.  I ended up with a crow-foot head on a ratchet.  There's space for the crow foot head to rotate about 270deg before having to reposition it, much better than the open end wrench!
This worked for me, as far as getting the bolt out. The upper bolt, btw, is 19mm (at least, mine was). I bought a set of cheap crow's feet, and it was a nightmare getting it to both sit on and stay on the bolt. However, after about two turns it was loose enough I could undo the bolt by hand.

This brings up a question from me: How do I get the starter off? Both bolts are out, but the start is still solidly seated. Partially, I suspect, because of the post, and partially because of the ridiculously tight clearance. I tried tapping both a plastic body shim, and a screw driver (gently) into the gap between the starter and the engine, but to no avail. There isn't enough clearance to get a rubber hammer and tap on it, as friends have suggested I do.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 27 April 2020, 06:29 PM
Sounds to me like it's fused in place by grime, hardened grease, etc.  It shouldn't be overly tight.  If it's clean it will just fall off the flange.  Maybe take a rubber mallet to whack a wooden rod on the end of it?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 28 April 2020, 09:44 AM
Following this one with more interest now that I see it in my future as well... :o

Matt have you wrestled this beast to the ground yet?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 28 April 2020, 12:29 PM
Sounds to me like it's fused in place by grime, hardened grease, etc.  It shouldn't be overly tight.  If it's clean it will just fall off the flange.  Maybe take a rubber mallet to whack a wooden rod on the end of it?

That's about what I was expecting. I'm going to go out today and spray it down with some rust-penetrating WD40, and if that doesn't work I might order a bottle of PB Blaster and give that a shot. A coworker recommended it as being very effective.

Following this one with more interest now that I see it in my future as well... :o

Matt have you wrestled this beast to the ground yet?
You're more than welcome to use my lift, if you want to haul your car stateside. By the time I'm done with mine, I'll probably have it figured out well enough the two of us could do it in a day.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: 3l33ter on 02 May 2020, 12:39 AM
Along with 6.9s, I am a Porsche 944 enthusiast. I couldn't help but notice that the starters look almost identical. If I ever have to take mine out I will see if one of my spare 944 ones will fit. Until then, if anyone wants to take a gamble, 944 starters are readily available - I'd try to find an "early" 944 one, which has the bigger body. The later ones were smaller gear reduction ones.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 02 May 2020, 12:55 AM
The Porsche 944 flywheel lock tool also fits perfectly too.

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Punker on 03 May 2020, 01:47 PM
The starter definitely has only 2 fixing screws. I had disassembled the starter recently and put it back on again. See also attached drawing.
Greetings
Björn
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 03 May 2020, 05:10 PM
The starter definitely has only 2 fixing screws. I had disassembled the starter recently and put it back on again. See also attached drawing.  Greetings
Björn
Is that supposed to be a 6.9 starter?  If so I'm quite certain that it isn't.  The 6.9 starter (and other M100 engines AFAIK) has 4 mounting bolt holes.  I've got 3 of them altogether and they're all 4 bold DESPITE only using 2 of the bolt holes.  I've wondered why - perhaps there are other differences that provide more torque for starting the bigger engine? 
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 03 May 2020, 08:28 PM
The starter definitely has only 2 fixing screws. I had disassembled the starter recently and put it back on again. See also attached drawing.  Greetings
Björn
Is that supposed to be a 6.9 starter?  If so I'm quite certain that it isn't.  The 6.9 starter (and other M100 engines AFAIK) has 4 mounting bolt holes.  I've got 3 of them altogether and they're all 4 bold DESPITE only using 2 of the bolt holes.  I've wondered why - perhaps there are other differences that provide more torque for starting the bigger engine?
My current one only has two bolt holes, and the one I'm replacing it with only has one. The new one uses just the upper bolt, and the post. It comes with a little disclaimer note from Bosch saying that while it may appear visually different, it's still slated to OEM quality. I can get the part number off it, if you'd like.


Also, update on my status: I have to pull the idler arm off. The bolt of the idler arm is rubbing against my starter, and so there's no way I'll be able to remove the starter without pulling it. I believe at least one of my motor mounts is broken, and I can't help but wonder if that might cause the engine to sit slightly lower than it would otherwise... or maybe the fact it's a 6.9 wedged into a 450SE is the reason. Either way, as soon as I've either someone here to help, or a large enough nut splitter, I'm going to remove the idler arm, and work on getting the starter out.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: daantjie on 03 May 2020, 09:35 PM
My starter has the 4x bolt hole pattern but you only use 2 of them in diagonal fashion.

On my 6.9 I was able to drop it down by just removing the steering damper, which is a 1 minute job, so not bad.  However I had to remove the trans filler tube to get enough space to get a socket on the top bolt head, it is super tight up there and those bolts are TIGHT :o
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 04 May 2020, 01:32 AM
I was under the impression 6.9 starters were NLA as a unit... Two bolt holes in the starter would be for a M117 starter. These may physically fit and work, I'm not sure.

The idler arm clearance issue is probably due to collapsed mounts as you say Mattr. Other 116s do use a different drag link and tie rods, this could also be a factor although I wouldn't have thought the m100 would fit without this being modified beforehand.

Tim

Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: s class on 04 May 2020, 01:04 PM
6.9 has a longer drag link and correspondingly shorter tie rods than the other 116s.  The steering box pitman arm and idler arms have different geometry too.  I forget all the details but I seem to recall that the 6.9 steering box mounting hole locations differ from those of the other cars as well.  That would imply that the idler arm mount is different too.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 11 May 2020, 07:49 PM
Today's update: I realized that I couldn't get the starter out without removing the idler arm, and the idler arm wouldn't come out without the cross member removed, so we dropped the cross member.

I was mistaken, before: my new starter has 3 bolt holes. I just thought that one of them was a post, but it was actually a bolt coming through from the 'back' side that I didn't see initially.


Only bolt left blocking me on the starter is the upper bolt. I can get my crow's foot onto it, but the clearance is so tight, I can't actually get any of my adapters onto the crow's foot. I need to buy a compact flex-joint for it, and maybe a 3/8ths socket wrench as well, and see if that will let me reach it.

(oh, if anyone is really curious: I'm posting what I'm doing to Instagram under 'guildhallgarage' because I'm really damn bored lately. It's pretty terrible photos, but hey, you're probably bored too.)
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: revilla on 12 May 2020, 12:18 AM
Hello there,

Been there. The space for the upper bolt is extremely tight and we’re blind when trying to insert the socket.

One thing that worked for me the last few times I removed the starters was to build an extension (about 1 meter long with a flex-joint at the tip) and introduce it from behind parallel to the transmission tunnel. Then, although still tight space, actuate the ratchet from the opposite tip where we have more leverage.  2 people is preferable, 1 introducing/holding the socket in place and the other turning the ratchet. Certainly a less frustrating approach to this challenge.

Good luck.

R
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 12:03 AM
Back to this. Starter is FINALLY out. Next problem? I need to now re-install it. Which brings about a problem: I've no idea where the largest cable (12v main from the battery, I believe) is supposed to connect. The two smallest ones are obvious, the next up someone explained to me where it goes, but they never replied when I asked where the main power connects... and my other 6.9 is currently away getting the interior replaced, so I can't look at it as a frame of reference. Any chance someone can explain it? Ideally with pictures and/or descriptions designed for an idiot?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: TJ 450 on 21 June 2020, 02:03 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 21 June 2020, 11:20 AM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 21 June 2020, 07:48 PM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263 (https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263).  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: Mattr on 22 June 2020, 05:13 PM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263 (https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263).  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
Title: Re: 6.9 starter
Post by: raueda1 on 22 June 2020, 07:00 PM
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263 (https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263).  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
Unless you (or someone) did something bizzarre, this is the battery cable.  The ground cable bolts to the frame supporting the battery tray.  The large cable should therefore connect to the large terminal on the solenoid along with the large cable with white insulation.  The latter goes back to the large terminal block under the battery and powers up the rest of the car.  I'd suggest removing the battery and tray so you can get a close look at this stuff and confirm.