Author Topic: 6.9 starter  (Read 4971 times)

Mattr

  • Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • 6.9 in a 450SE
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #30 on: 22 June 2020, 05:13 PM »
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263.  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
1976 450SE 6.9 FrankenBenz (#2288?)
1977 450SEL 6.9 #2333

raueda1

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 810
  • Assimilated. Resistance is futile.
  • Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #31 on: 22 June 2020, 07:00 PM »
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263.  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
Unless you (or someone) did something bizzarre, this is the battery cable.  The ground cable bolts to the frame supporting the battery tray.  The large cable should therefore connect to the large terminal on the solenoid along with the large cable with white insulation.  The latter goes back to the large terminal block under the battery and powers up the rest of the car.  I'd suggest removing the battery and tray so you can get a close look at this stuff and confirm. 
-Dave
Now:  '76 6.9 Euro
Before that:  1966 230S, 1964 220SE coupe, 1977 Carrera 3.0

Mattr

  • Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • 6.9 in a 450SE
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #32 on: 05 December 2020, 10:07 PM »
The hot cable goes on the big M8 post on the solenoid (next to the two screw terminals).

Tim
Isn't that where the larger of these three cables goes? Do both connections go onto that post?
I recently went through this.  But my memory is imperfect so cross check.  Anyway, not sure what you mean by "both."  The solenoid has 3 terminals: large, medium and small.   Those ring terminals are connected accordingly.  The large cable goes back to the terminal block under the battery where it is connected to the battery.  Check that.  if you have 2 of the large rings on the starter cable assembly then I'm almost certain that one of them goes back either to the battery or the terminal block.  See this thread too. https://forum.w116.org/mechanicals/4-terminal-electrical-block-under-batter-tray/msg146263/#msg146263.  I've encountered inconsistencies in how these cars are wired.  Post what you find and good luck.  Cheers,
The large cable here is the 4th one I'm referring to. I think it's either 12v main from the battery, or maybe the main ground cable for the battery, and needs to be connected to the frame?

If anyone could snag a photo of what their starter looks like, properly connected, I'd be thrilled.
Unless you (or someone) did something bizzarre, this is the battery cable.  The ground cable bolts to the frame supporting the battery tray.  The large cable should therefore connect to the large terminal on the solenoid along with the large cable with white insulation.  The latter goes back to the large terminal block under the battery and powers up the rest of the car.  I'd suggest removing the battery and tray so you can get a close look at this stuff and confirm.

--Yes, I know, I'm digging up an old topic, but shortly after this last post I got appendicitis, and between that and changes at work, it wasn't until now that I was even thinking of trying to get back to work on my car.

Did you by chance photo document how the connections are supposed to go? I'm going to look at the battery box you mentioned tomorrow, but my ground cable seems to be frame-mounted next to the starter? My car is an oddity (450SE with a 6.9 stuffed into it), so I've uncovered many a strange thing as I've gone to fix things. I also didn't take any photos before disconnecting the battery, and now I don't recall where any of the connections are supposed to go. I'll go take a photo of the starer tomorrow, and label that and the photo above, then share them. That might be the most efficient method for getting this squared away.
1976 450SE 6.9 FrankenBenz (#2288?)
1977 450SEL 6.9 #2333

daantjie

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,338
  • W116 Enthusiast
  • Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #33 on: 06 December 2020, 08:17 AM »
There should be a heavy braided copper wire running from the frame to bellhousing which is the starter ground.
Of course there is also the negative battery ground to frame too.
The heavy cable in your pic runs to battery positive and onto the large M8 post on the solenoid as Tim stated.
You will need to show a pic of your terminal block under the battery tray.
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

Mattr

  • Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • 6.9 in a 450SE
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #34 on: 06 December 2020, 11:18 AM »
There should be a heavy braided copper wire running from the frame to bellhousing which is the starter ground.
Of course there is also the negative battery ground to frame too.
The heavy cable in your pic runs to battery positive and onto the large M8 post on the solenoid as Tim stated.
You will need to show a pic of your terminal block under the battery tray.
If it weren't covid I'd try and bribe you to come down and stare at this with me.  :P

I'll grab a photo of the terminal block under the battery tray when I head out there in a bit.
1976 450SE 6.9 FrankenBenz (#2288?)
1977 450SEL 6.9 #2333

raueda1

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 810
  • Assimilated. Resistance is futile.
  • Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #35 on: 06 December 2020, 08:55 PM »
There should be a heavy braided copper wire running from the frame to bellhousing which is the starter ground.
Of course there is also the negative battery ground to frame too.
The heavy cable in your pic runs to battery positive and onto the large M8 post on the solenoid as Tim stated.
You will need to show a pic of your terminal block under the battery tray.
If it weren't covid I'd try and bribe you to come down and stare at this with me.  :P

I'll grab a photo of the terminal block under the battery tray when I head out there in a bit.
Yes, that pesky terminal block!  6]I went through all this last spring and have some decent pix, I think.  But I'm traveling, can't send now.  Will do so midweek when I get home unless someone else does in the meantime.  Cheers,
-Dave
Now:  '76 6.9 Euro
Before that:  1966 230S, 1964 220SE coupe, 1977 Carrera 3.0

daantjie

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,338
  • W116 Enthusiast
  • Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #36 on: 07 December 2020, 09:35 AM »
Ok here is mine, excuse the grime, I have since cleaned it up a bit ;D
 I have a 4 post terminal block, and the 3x wires (excluding the heavy positive cable running to + on battery) run from the solenoid to the terminal block.
The heaviest of the 3 gets connected with the + battery cable onto the post onto the large post on the solenoid.  There is also another large post, but you will see a braided copper wire here running to the starter body, so do not confuse these 2.  This cable then connects on the "top" in my pic, circled in red
The middle sized wire connects to terminal "50", also known as "S" terminal.  This wire then connects at the "bottom", in green section.
Then the last, thinnest wire connects to the ignition terminal on the solenoid, it is the top most connection with the starter in situ.  This wire then connects in the yellow section.
I hope this helps, and at least this is how mine is wired.
« Last Edit: 10 December 2020, 10:12 PM by daantjie »
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

daantjie

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,338
  • W116 Enthusiast
  • Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #37 on: 07 December 2020, 04:01 PM »
Here is the corresponding connections on the starter.  You will see I also have a black coloured wire at the "green" connection, this wire runs to the coil, not sure if you have this on your setup:
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

Mattr

  • Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • 6.9 in a 450SE
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #38 on: 12 December 2020, 01:07 PM »
Here's photos of the terminal block under the battery tray.

I took a couple other photos, but they all wound up being rather monstrous, due to the camera on my phone. If this isn't adequate, let me know and I can take more, or try to compress those so they'll be allowed.
1976 450SE 6.9 FrankenBenz (#2288?)
1977 450SEL 6.9 #2333

daantjie

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,338
  • W116 Enthusiast
  • Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #39 on: 12 December 2020, 01:37 PM »
Hmmm it looks like your connections at present differ from mine.  The only advice I can give now is to try and trace each wire from the starter back to the terminal block and to see if you can determine the 3 thicknesses of these wires.  However not sure if then you should follow my setup, sorry but I think you will need an auto electrical guru to assist further :-\
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

daantjie

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,338
  • W116 Enthusiast
  • Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #40 on: 12 December 2020, 02:09 PM »
OK hold up, let me not give up now :)

I fished out the wiring diagram, maybe this will help (or not, ha-ha).  So here goes...

You should notice a heavy red wire running from your alternator, this then connects on the "2nd from top" connector on the terminal block (I think your pic is upside down BTW).  So on my car, this connection on the terminal block also houses the connection from the battery connection on the starter.  In the wiring diagram this is "30" terminal on the starter (which again also has the heavy wire running to the battery itself).  Red in my pic

Then the "second from bottom" connection on the terminal block should have a thin red/violet wire connected here.  This is also then where you would connect the thinnest of the 3x wires coming from the starter, which connects to terminal "16" on the starter (yellow in my pic).

Lastly the bottom most connector on the terminal block - here you will see a medium sized violet coloured wire connected (this runs to the starter relay "4").  Also here you should see a thin pink/blue wire connected, this runs to the thermo time switch for the cold start valve.  Here you need to connect the medium sized wire from the starter - "50" - green in my pic.

Phew I think that covers it ;)

EDIT

OK, one more point of clarification...I see in your pic, your top most connection on the terminal block houses the thickest wire from starter. If you look at the wiring diagram this appears to be correct, and this top most connection is where you will see the wire connected which runs to the alternator.  Thus if I were you I would keep this as is.

On my car (look at pic) you will see my "red" connection is 2nd from top, and this looks to be the power connection for the headlights.  Not sure why mine is connected here as opposed to the top connection shared with alternator connection(?)  Anyhow, mine works in this fashion, so I will just keep it as is for mine, and I think you should keep yours as is for the red connection.  But then the yellow and green spots should be the same.

« Last Edit: 12 December 2020, 10:17 PM by daantjie »
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

raueda1

  • Vintage
  • ***
  • Posts: 810
  • Assimilated. Resistance is futile.
  • Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #41 on: 13 December 2020, 06:09 PM »
Hmmm it looks like your connections at present differ from mine.  The only advice I can give now is to try and trace each wire from the starter back to the terminal block and to see if you can determine the 3 thicknesses of these wires.  However not sure if then you should follow my setup, sorry but I think you will need an auto electrical guru to assist further :-\
Hey Daniel, thanks for stepping up and helping with this.  I looked at my pictures and yours are much nicer.  This is a confusing topic, as what I ended up with only used 3 or the terminals on the block.  I couldn't figure out what the 4th large one was and couldn't find it on the schematics either.   :o  Cheers and happy 6.9ing to all.
-Dave
Now:  '76 6.9 Euro
Before that:  1966 230S, 1964 220SE coupe, 1977 Carrera 3.0

daantjie

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,338
  • W116 Enthusiast
  • Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #42 on: 18 December 2020, 09:46 PM »
Matt what's happening the suspence is killing me  8)
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

nathan

  • W116 Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,810
  • Location: perth, western australia
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #43 on: 15 November 2021, 06:29 AM »
when searching for info on my 6.9 starter, I got led back to home and this post!
so here is a video I made of removing and replacing a starter on my 6.9
nothing earth shattering for the boffins, but maybe of help to the simpletons like me

https://youtu.be/dipiK-wzGy4
6.9 79 #6436
6.9 79 #6290
6.9 79 #6181
6.9 78 #4764
6.9 77 #3096
6.9 76 #1741
6.9 76 #0902
6.9 75 #0018

Mattr

  • Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • 6.9 in a 450SE
Re: 6.9 starter
« Reply #44 on: 16 November 2021, 09:03 PM »
when searching for info on my 6.9 starter, I got led back to home and this post!
so here is a video I made of removing and replacing a starter on my 6.9
nothing earth shattering for the boffins, but maybe of help to the simpletons like me

https://youtu.be/dipiK-wzGy4
Thank you for this. This is a huge help for me, who still hasn't re-installed the starter in their car (it's been a rough pandemic for me). It also helps me understand where the ground on my car is supposed to go, instead of the weird place it currently does.
1976 450SE 6.9 FrankenBenz (#2288?)
1977 450SEL 6.9 #2333