6.9 Starter Motor Wiring?

[koan]

The starter motor is totally enclosed so the sparks couldn't be from within the motor.

For sparks to be seen there must be a loose connection -  a gap for the sparks to jump.

I can see how the solenoid could just work in the wrongly wired configuration.

koan

[pal]

After fitting the starter it still wouldn't work - it seems the 8.6v on ignition isn't enough to send the solenoid out and spin the gear. So I briefly touched the battery terminal to the brown wire that was previously showing 8.6v The car started but would not disengage the solenoid/starter (switched off very fast)

I then cut the brown wire and then again briefly connected the end that went to the solenoid to the battery. Disconnecting this after starting then allowed the solenoid/starter to disengage properly.

So I am a little suspicious of the ignition switch wiring. Tonight I will trace back the brown wire (changes to red under the battery) and red/white wire (changes to purple wire under the battery)

I think these are both going to the ignition switch.
Or maybe I am on a wild goose chase.

Thanks for your help, any advice welcomed.

:-)
Pal

[koan]

I think you still have the wires on the small terminals swapped over.

Find the small wire that has 12 V on it when the ignition switch is in the start position and 0 volts in ignition run, this wire goes to terminal number 50 on the solenoid.

The wire with 8.6 V goes to terminal 15.

If the solenoid on your vehicle is on the bottom of the starter motor, as is mine, these connection are as I described in an earlier post.

koan

[pal]

Koan

Maybe - just wanted to confirm something - looking at the car from the front is your starter on the left side of the gearbox or the right? Mine is on the right (RHD Euro version) tucked it with the solenoid at the bottom towards the engine.

On my car looking at it from the front reading clockwise around the solenoid

Battery is at the bottom left - large terminal
Brown wire top left - slightly bigger screw terminal (8.6v)
Red wire with white stripe top right - small screw terminal
Wire into the starter from the solenoid bottom right - large terminal

So this looks ok to me. Testing the Red wire with white stripe it never gets 12v on it - even when the ignition is turned all the way. I'll trace this wire back as soon as I get a chance, could this be a relay fault?

That work thing... it always gets in the way!

Thanks
Pal

I think you still have the wires on the small terminals swapped over.

Find the small wire that has 12 V on it when the ignition switch is in the start position and 0 volts in ignition run, this wire goes to terminal number 50 on the solenoid.

The wire with 8.6 V goes to terminal 15.

If the solenoid on your vehicle is on the bottom of the starter motor, as is mine, these connection are as I described in an earlier post.

koan

[koan]

My car is a RHD, we respect the Queen's wish here and drive on the correct side of the road. Like yours the starter is on the passenger's side with the solenoid vertically below it (not off to one side).

I'll try and get a picture of it tomorrow showing its orientation and wiring, I've just had a quick look, what you describe I think is correct, the rubber cover is in the way.

Not sure if you have a starter relay or not, some diagrams show one, some don't. The relay could be stuffed if you have one..

Koan

[Bandolero]

Hi Pal,
I had the same trouble with my starter on my 6.9.
I would go to start the engine and the solenoid would go "click" but not make connection to start the car.
The reason is voltage drop to the solenoid. If it doesn't throw in hard, it won't make a good connection (inside the solenoid).
My starter was good and had a NEW solenoid at the time.
When it happened, I was home and so I rang the auto-electrician. He said to do what you did. Short the solenoid wire to the power connection. This worked. After that the starter worked properly.
HOWEVER, he did say it would happen again. So before it did, I had a relay fitted to the starter solenoid wiring and now no problems any more.
This voltage drop problem is common to older cars as the wiring gets old and loses voltage. This is common with our Aussie Fords of the 80's. Ford took shortcuts with the wiring to save money. They also used thinner wiring to the tail lights on the Falcons causing dim brake lights etc.
So even though it is not original, you may have to fit a relay to your starter wiring.

[pal]

Thanks Koan

:-) Tried taking pictures but the camera but they are out of focus.... need to figure out how to get the macro working.

I tried some good relays from the 350SEL but no joy. The odd thing is that when the ignition is turned to try and start the vehicle I get 12v in the red/white wire that goes to the solenoid. This doesn't start the car. Trying to swap points 15 & 50 on the solenoid is no good either as the car still won't start.

The only way I get the car going is to touch the brown wire to +12v if I don't break the brown wire's connection quickly and then reconnect the starter does not disengage. So I'm thinking that maybe a simple 12v relay is the answer. I have now tried all permutations of the 15 and 50 wiring and no joy.

I've also tested the wires for continuity & breaks. When tracing back the red & white wire I found it goes back to the ignition switch. The brown wire does prove to be eventually connected back to the ballast system as a continuity test proves.

I'm thinking that  the only answer is a simple 40A/12v power relay - nominal feed from the red/white wire (12v on starting and then 0v) to connect the brown wire to the 12v positive terminal for 1-2 seconds.

Regards
Pal

My car is a RHD, we respect the Queen's wish here and drive on the correct side of the road. Like yours the starter is on the passenger's side with the solenoid vertically below it (not off to one side).

I'll try and get a picture of it tomorrow showing its orientation and wiring, I've just had a quick look, what you describe I think is correct, the rubber cover is in the way.

Not sure if you have a starter relay or not, some diagrams show one, some don't. The relay could be stuffed if you have one..

Koan

[pal]

Hi Bandolero,

I think maybe you are right. The wires all look ok.... it seems a shame to have to add a relay when everything is already in the beast.

Thanks
Pal

Hi Pal,
I had the same trouble with my starter on my 6.9.
I would go to start the engine and the solenoid would go "click" but not make connection to start the car.
The reason is voltage drop to the solenoid. If it doesn't throw in hard, it won't make a good connection (inside the solenoid).
My starter was good and had a NEW solenoid at the time.
When it happened, I was home and so I rang the auto-electrician. He said to do what you did. Short the solenoid wire to the power connection. This worked. After that the starter worked properly.
HOWEVER, he did say it would happen again. So before it did, I had a relay fitted to the starter solenoid wiring and now no problems any more.
This voltage drop problem is common to older cars as the wiring gets old and loses voltage. This is common with our Aussie Fords of the 80's. Ford took shortcuts with the wiring to save money. They also used thinner wiring to the tail lights on the Falcons causing dim brake lights etc.
So even though it is not original, you may have to fit a relay to your starter wiring.

[koan]

Adding a relay to fix it is not the answer, it used to work and it should work now. The relay would be a bodge job, just masking a problem.

The odd thing is that when the ignition is turned to try and start the vehicle I get 12v in the red/white wire that goes to the solenoid. This doesn't start the car.

But is the 12 Volts there when connected to the terminal and cranking or does it drop right down indicating resistance somewhere?

How about this:

Remove all the wires from the terminals except the big thick one that goes directly to the battery. Get a length of wire and connect one end to where the red/white connects on the solenoid, with ignition off, touch the other end of the wire to the battery plus terminal. The engine should crank (but not start obviously) and stop cranking when you remove the wire from the battery. If it doesn't crank you must be on the wrong terminal, try the wire on the other small terminal.

If you find the terminal that cranks, that terminal get the wire that goes back to the ignition switch. The 8.6 Volt wire from the ballast resistors goes to the other terminal.

The third smallish wire should be traceable back to the alternator B+ terminal and goes to the same big terminal as the big thick battery wire.

If neither terminal cranks there is a problem with the solenoid or starter.

The only way I get the car going is to touch the brown wire to +12v if I don't break the brown wire's connection quickly and then reconnect the starter does not disengage.

(deleted)

The brown wire does prove to be eventually connected back to the ballast system as a continuity test proves.

I don't understand what you are doing here, is this with all other wires connected or not?  Are you removing the brown ballast wire from the solenoid terminal, flashing it to the big 12 Volt terminal and then back to its proper place or somewhere else?

It makes no sense that putting 12 Volts back up the ballast wire  makes the engine crank.

koan

[pal]

I was running out of options  I will try what you say.
Thanks mate.

Adding a relay to fix it is not the answer, it used to work and it should work now. The relay would be a bodge job, just masking a problem.

The odd thing is that when the ignition is turned to try and start the vehicle I get 12v in the red/white wire that goes to the solenoid. This doesn't start the car.

But is the 12 Volts there when connected to the terminal and cranking or does it drop right down indicating resistance somewhere?

How about this:

Remove all the wires from the terminals except the big thick one that goes directly to the battery. Get a length of wire and connect one end to where the red/white connects on the solenoid, with ignition off, touch the other end of the wire to the battery plus terminal. The engine should crank (but not start obviously) and stop cranking when you remove the wire from the battery. If it doesn't crank you must be on the wrong terminal, try the wire on the other small terminal.

If you find the terminal that cranks, that terminal get the wire that goes back to the ignition switch. The 8.6 Volt wire from the ballast resistors goes to the other terminal.

The third smallish wire should be traceable back to the alternator B+ terminal and goes to the same big terminal as the big thick battery wire.

If neither terminal cranks there is a problem with the solenoid or starter.

The only way I get the car going is to touch the brown wire to +12v if I don't break the brown wire's connection quickly and then reconnect the starter does not disengage.

(deleted)

The brown wire does prove to be eventually connected back to the ballast system as a continuity test proves.

I don't understand what you are doing here, is this with all other wires connected or not?  Are you removing the brown ballast wire from the solenoid terminal, flashing it to the big 12 Volt terminal and then back to its proper place or somewhere else?

It makes no sense that putting 12 Volts back up the ballast wire  makes the engine crank.

koan

[pal]

Koan,

OK. This is what I have done (prior to going through the steps you suggested).

Before trying what you suggested I thought I'd apply some jump leads and hey presto the car started a treat. Tried it again jumps still connected and it wouldn't start. I then attached a voltmeter to the battery terminals. Its intermittent.

But is the 12 Volts there when connected to the terminal and cranking or does it drop right down indicating resistance somewhere?

When the failure occurs the voltage does drop right down to about 9 or 10 volts. Could this mean a faulty relay?

Thanks
Pal

[s class]

DOes the battery always droop when cranking?  If so the battery is on its way out. 

[koan]

I don't know if GB cars have a relay in the starter circuit, AUS cars don't, US cars do according to the wiring diagram (early on in the thread I thought you were US, that's why I mentioned relay).

Before trying what you suggested I thought I'd apply some jump leads and hey presto the car started a treat. Tried it again jumps still connected and it wouldn't start. I then attached a voltmeter to the battery terminals. Its intermittent.

When the failure occurs the voltage does drop right down to about 9 or 10 volts. Could this mean a faulty relay?

Where are you measuring the battery voltage? At the battery or at the starter as I described? If at the battery are you across the actual terminal posts of the battery or the connections to the terminals or from the vehicle body and the +12 V battery terminal? 

It makes a difference, if you have a poor connection you will be losing voltage across the poor connection.

9 or 10 Volts at the battery would be OK - if the engine was actually cranking but it's not.  What do measure with the headlights on?

I am assuming you nave cleaned and tightened the battery terminals... if not please do. Also, remove the battery ground cable where it connects to the body and clean the end and the body with coarse sand paper and reassemble.

koan

[pal]

Hi Koan, the voltage is being measured across the actual + and - battery terminals themselves. The terminals are tight too. I'll test with the headlights on and come back with the results tomorrow morning. At this point if I went back outside (11pm) my wife might get a little more than jealous.

Tomorrow I will do the tests you described earlier and also clean the body connection to the -ve of the battery.

PS. I am now using a brand new battery.

I don't know if GB cars have a relay in the starter circuit, AUS cars don't, US cars do according to the wiring diagram (early on in the thread I thought you were US, that's why I mentioned relay).

Before trying what you suggested I thought I'd apply some jump leads and hey presto the car started a treat. Tried it again jumps still connected and it wouldn't start. I then attached a voltmeter to the battery terminals. Its intermittent.

When the failure occurs the voltage does drop right down to about 9 or 10 volts. Could this mean a faulty relay?

Where are you measuring the battery voltage? At the battery or at the starter as I described? If at the battery are you across the actual terminal posts of the battery or the connections to the terminals or from the vehicle body and the +12 V battery terminal? 

It makes a difference, if you have a poor connection you will be losing voltage across the poor connection.

9 or 10 Volts at the battery would be OK - if the engine was actually cranking but it's not.  What do measure with the headlights on?

I am assuming you nave cleaned and tightened the battery terminals... if not please do. Also, remove the battery ground cable where it connects to the body and clean the end and the body with coarse sand paper and reassemble.

koan

[Papalangi]

I wonder if you have a bad cable, the heavy one from the battery.  The terminal can become loose and arc inside until it no longer can carry enough current to do it's job even though it will show 12 volts with a digital meter.

You can test the cable by measuring the voltage dropped across it.  If you don't have test leads with alligator clips, I'd recommend getting some.  Connect your voltmeter to the big terminal on the starter, the nut or threaded shaft, not one of the wires.  Connect the other test lead to the positive battery post.  Try to start the car.  You should not see more than .5 volts.  If you do, replace the cable.

I would test the starter motor when installed by connecting only the big red wire and applying +12 volts to each of the small terminals until I found the one that caused the starter to engage.

Next, I would test each of the wires until I found one that has +12 only when the key is in the start position.  This wire will go to the terminal found in the previous step.  If there is a wire that show +12 only when in the key is in the start position but the starter still won't engage, the either the crimped terminal on the wire is faulty or the AC/starter relay has bad contacts.

Of the other two wires, the one that shows +12 with the key off will go to the big terminal and the other, which should show something less than +12 would go to the other small terminal.

You might want to get yourself a remote starter switch.  It's a push button or trigger switch with longish leads.  You connect one to the positive battery teminal and the other to the start terminal on the starter.

Michael