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450SEL with weird rattle/clanking from the transmission area

Started by Zaxxon, 08 March 2016, 10:11 PM

Zaxxon

Hello!

Just got an "offer I can't refuse" to add a (I am 99% sure - '78) 450SEL to my collection. Car is one of the most rust-free examples I've seen. My only other 116 ever was a 280SE back in Germany, that I inherited from my grandfather unfortunately too far gone and rusted to make sense restoring. The M110 out of that continued to live in a W126 I was driving then as a winter car.

Ok, enough old stories. This car is in decent shape, needs some cosmetics, has 60k on the clock and the engine runs beautiful. Was always garaged and dealer maintained. Needs seat work, paint, A/C work and a couple small dings removed. Most scary however is the reason I got the car for basically nothing - there is a rattle/tinny clunking as soon as you start the car coming from the are of the TC/flex plate. It gets progressively louder the longer the car runs. Transmission shifts, car drives, but the sound is horrid when it gets loud. Any idea what it could be? I mean, It sounds like it could be as simple as a flex plate bolt backed out and hitting something, but could maybe also be the TC or the front pump? I am really not too savvy with A/Ts, but maybe anyone has had an issue like that before!

Thanks for your help already in advance,
-Zax
---
Mercedes: '99 CL500, '86 500SEC, '96 SL500, '06 R500, '02 ML320, '78 450SEL
Porsche: '80 928S 5-Speed, '86.5 928S RogerBox '86.5 928S 5-Speed, '83 944
Others: '84 Callaway Alfa Romeo GTV6, '83 Tiara, '87 FZ

daantjie

Welcome to the forum ;D
Are you sure the starter is disengaging after start?
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

Zaxxon

Hi Daniel!

Thanks for your quick reply - it definitely doesn't sound like a not disengaged starter to me...the sound is more tinny, like some lighter piece of metal hitting something else as it rotates...I know, this is a really dumb way of diagnosing something. I was just wondering if anyone had heard something like that before I get the chance to put the car up in the air and go through separating the tranny and all!
---
Mercedes: '99 CL500, '86 500SEC, '96 SL500, '06 R500, '02 ML320, '78 450SEL
Porsche: '80 928S 5-Speed, '86.5 928S RogerBox '86.5 928S 5-Speed, '83 944
Others: '84 Callaway Alfa Romeo GTV6, '83 Tiara, '87 FZ

ptashek

Quote from: Zaxxon on 08 March 2016, 10:26 PM
Hi Daniel!

Thanks for your quick reply - it definitely doesn't sound like a not disengaged starter to me...the sound is more tinny, like some lighter piece of metal hitting something else as it rotates...I know, this is a really dumb way of diagnosing something. I was just wondering if anyone had heard something like that before I get the chance to put the car up in the air and go through separating the tranny and all!

Can you record a short video of it?
It could be the flex disc, but if one were gone this far there would be a lot of vibration while driving. It can be the centre shaft support bearing, exhaust or one of the heat shields gone loose.
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

Zaxxon

Hi ptashek!

It doesn't sound like CSB or flex disk. But who knows, I had atypical noises before. I am not sure about vibrations, haven't gotten  to drive it much more than around the parking lot so far. I'll get it to the house this weekend and will definitely be able to record a clip and post it!

Thanks for your help!
---
Mercedes: '99 CL500, '86 500SEC, '96 SL500, '06 R500, '02 ML320, '78 450SEL
Porsche: '80 928S 5-Speed, '86.5 928S RogerBox '86.5 928S 5-Speed, '83 944
Others: '84 Callaway Alfa Romeo GTV6, '83 Tiara, '87 FZ

polymathman

Get under it and have a look. All the shafts are black and rotate, so anything interfering will leave a bright line around it.

If the noise starts as soon as the engine is running, without the car moving it is probably the exhaust pipe hitting something, or one of the shields loose. These can make a racket.

Either way, you gotta get it up and get under it.
190sl 1957 rusting away
250S 1968 long gone
280SE 1976 got hit, parts
280SE 1979 running fine
C320 4Matic 2005 for wife -Mercedes after MIT

Zaxxon

Apparently the last dealer visit of the car had it on the lift, nothing externally visible that could be the noise, and the "old man" didn't want to spend any more money on the car to look into it. That's kind of how I ended up with the car.

But yes, as soon as I can I will get it up in the air - I was just wondering if anyone ever had something like that, since even a couple of experienced Mercedes guys I know that have heard it are somewhat uncertain. Flexplate, TC or front pump were some of the thoughts...
---
Mercedes: '99 CL500, '86 500SEC, '96 SL500, '06 R500, '02 ML320, '78 450SEL
Porsche: '80 928S 5-Speed, '86.5 928S RogerBox '86.5 928S 5-Speed, '83 944
Others: '84 Callaway Alfa Romeo GTV6, '83 Tiara, '87 FZ

daantjie

Does the noise change when in gear as opposed to stationary and gear selector lever in "P"?
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber

Zaxxon

Hi Daniel,

aside from the change in frequency of the individual "clanks" caused by the engine revving a little slower in gear or while engaging, it doesn't really change. It does however get louder with time. Right after startup it's hard to even hear, but a few minutes of warming up and you can't miss it if you'd try.
---
Mercedes: '99 CL500, '86 500SEC, '96 SL500, '06 R500, '02 ML320, '78 450SEL
Porsche: '80 928S 5-Speed, '86.5 928S RogerBox '86.5 928S 5-Speed, '83 944
Others: '84 Callaway Alfa Romeo GTV6, '83 Tiara, '87 FZ

ptashek

Quote from: Zaxxon on 09 March 2016, 02:01 PM
Hi Daniel,

aside from the change in frequency of the individual "clanks" caused by the engine revving a little slower in gear or while engaging, it doesn't really change. It does however get louder with time. Right after startup it's hard to even hear, but a few minutes of warming up and you can't miss it if you'd try.

Are you sure it's under the car? It could also be a worn out chain tensioner, a stretched out chain or both.
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1988 "Arctic White" W124 200T
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE

polymathman

Sounds more and more like a exhaust pipe rattle. The exhaust will change length as it heats up, which would change the noise.
190sl 1957 rusting away
250S 1968 long gone
280SE 1976 got hit, parts
280SE 1979 running fine
C320 4Matic 2005 for wife -Mercedes after MIT

gazzzza12

could be your bendix gear try spacing out your starter moter two ml worked for me

Zaxxon

I haven't taken a stethoscope to it yet, but I am fairly certain it's underneath the car, close to the bell housing. But you never know. The starter might be a possibility too. Who knows! I was just a little confused, because I had a lot of old Mercedes over the years, and still have a few, but I never had a TC or a flex plate fail. Hell, I never even had a transmission fail, and some of My cars had well over 250k on the clock...so I was just wondering if anyone ever had either fail with symptoms like that.

I'll be sure to report what I'll find, if I find something. Plan is to get the car onto the lift Saturday and tinker a bit with it...
---
Mercedes: '99 CL500, '86 500SEC, '96 SL500, '06 R500, '02 ML320, '78 450SEL
Porsche: '80 928S 5-Speed, '86.5 928S RogerBox '86.5 928S 5-Speed, '83 944
Others: '84 Callaway Alfa Romeo GTV6, '83 Tiara, '87 FZ

Zaxxon

Ok, drove the car, had it on the lift and all such things. First off, the car drives and shifts as it should. Quite nicely actually! But the sound is definitely there, and I got some more sounds. Source seems to be definitely the area around/at the TC. Used a stethoscope and got it pretty much homed in. Here is a short clip of the car idling on the lift:

https://goo.gl/photos/UuBYdSUQBps1BsZz9

Now, the louder noise I hadn't heard before is a whining noise as soon as I put the car in reverse or drive. And the noise gets even louder and higher pitched for the first 2-3 seconds accelerating and then completely disappears as the car gets going. I thought it was getting shorter in duration and less frequent the longer I was driving the car, but I didn't dare to take it too far today, just because I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. I don't yet have a video of that noise, but I might try to capture it too.

Unless anyone has any ideas, I am thinking of doing a complete A/T oil and filter change, and carefully drive it a little more at a time to see if the noise will disappear. I know now that the car has been sitting A LOT and had not been driven frequently at all.

Thanks for listening to me....errrr..whine...:P
Marcus
---
Mercedes: '99 CL500, '86 500SEC, '96 SL500, '06 R500, '02 ML320, '78 450SEL
Porsche: '80 928S 5-Speed, '86.5 928S RogerBox '86.5 928S 5-Speed, '83 944
Others: '84 Callaway Alfa Romeo GTV6, '83 Tiara, '87 FZ

daantjie

ATF and filter change is a good start yes.  It will give you an idea of the state of the transmission by taking a look at the residue in the bottom of the pan. Lots of sludge and metal flake is bad. Burnt smell of the fluid is really bad.
The whining sound may be the pump straining to pick up fluid so maybe your fluid level is too low.  Once you change fluid and filter make 100% sure your level is spot on with hot engine. Also remember to drain the torque converter.
Daniel
1977 450 SEL 6.9 - Astralsilber