450SEL developments

[TJ 450]

With the latest issue of exhaust stud breakage, I'm considering my options.

This is where it's at:


I have a spare 1977 Euro engine in the "shed", which isn't fit for use "as-is", because it has cooked camshafts at the very least.

I have also been well aware of the oil consumption, blow by and valve guide/stem seal issues with the existing engine, which has a mileage of 352,000km.

The exhaust studs will need to be drilled out and Helicoiled, which would necessitate head removal to do properly and is all going to cost money. Because of this, I'd like to disassemble the Euro for a start, then remove the heads from the existing engine for evaluation.

Preferably, I would like to rebuild the Euro heads, as I have confirmed that the exhaust studs come out easily and it has done 199,000km according to the odometer. Then I would fit them to the existing Aus. spec block, as I'd rather not resort to rebuilding the bottom end.

PB thinks that this would be counterproductive, as the bottom end probably needs attention in the original engine.

So, my question is; What what is the concensus on this, and what would you do in this situation?

I am very reluctant to touch the bottom end, but will do if it is necessary.

Tim

[s class]

OK.

I think taking the lower mileage euro heads is a good idea if you can do it. 

I would keep the existing engine block you have in the car, and thus retain the correct engine number.
Further in favour of that, if I recall the donor euro engine has possible oil circulation problems.

Now, of course, there are cons.  Your existing engine has blow-by problems and oil consumption problems?  It would be disappointing to go through all this and still have an engine that uses oil. 

A wise old indie MB tech that taught me a lot, once said : "Never open an MB engine unless you can afford a full rebuild".  The context is that if you are going to open the engine, be prepared to go the distance, regardless of what you find inside. 

If you take your heads off, maybe you are lucky and the bores are fair.  Consider honing and new rings at least then.  I think the bottom end should be OK at 350000km as long as its never had any oil starvation issues. 

I guess the summary is, once you take your heads off, its going to cost you a fair bit to have the car running again, whatever you do.  So, realise then that a complete engine overhaul isn't going to cost that much more than the 'heads only' work you are proposing. 

Check your bank balance, and dream about what a fully overhauled engine will sound like.... I did it with my 280SE 10 years ago, and I have never regretted it. 

[TJ 450]

That sounds like a very logical approach, S Class.

My bank balance is certainly not in favour of that sort of work right now, but I am prepared to have the car off the road for some weeks to get it done properly. Providing it doesn't need to be bored out, I also have quite a few spare standard pistons that are in excellent condition (two sets at least), if I run into any problems there. As it's a cast iron block, honing operations and the like should be quite straight forward.

Anyway, I'll see what it's like when I remove the heads. The first step will be to remove the engine and transmission from the car regardless of what I do. Now that sounds familiar!

Tim

[Big_Richard]

I can understand your frustration at the situation your in currently, only having a 6.9 left as a daily driver.

As an emergency measure, replacing the heads will get you out of trouble and provide many years of trouble free motoring, albeit with some oil consumption. You are still going to have to perform the front end rebuild on the dangerous suspension but thats cheap anyway, with free use of my press.

Perhaps when the 380 is drivable as a daily driver, you can then give the 450 the full attention it requires.

[TJ 450]

Yes, indeed.

The other factor is, that the cost of this project would also see the 380 close to completion. I will be prepared to go the distance if it must be done, though.

There's no question about the front suspension though. It has to be done for sure.

Tim

[Big_Richard]

Well, there you go, I just used my "dealing with a difficult client" training, and this time i didn't get punched in the face.

Success!

[nathan]

dude,
top end only.  in light of current situations, just swap the heads. you can make a concourse vehicle out of this thing later.  you dont need another car in 1000 pieces! youll end up like me, you own several cars, all of which being constantly worked on and undriveable!

[TJ 450]

PB, that's exactly what I was thinking when I read your post, although surely I didn't come across as being a difficult customer.  LOL

Nathan, that is certainly a realistic idea. Besides, there's plenty of time to get things sorted out in due course.

Tim

[s class]

yes, I suppose the emergency approach is sensible in this case. 

And yes, avoid having all your cars in pieces at once.  I have 10 cars on my property at the moment, and all but 3 are in pieces.   

[SELfor50]

I'm always a fan of if you're going to do it, do it properly the first time.  So I'd say do the total re-build.

In saying that.. You're probably better off just doing the top end cause even with reco-'d heads (get the CAMS done too, a local shop in perth should be able to 'touch' them up a little ), valve stem seals etc etc... you'd end up with a nice runner.

If you want advice on the cheapest way to re-build the bottom end though, I can ask Torana78 (I think his user name was).  Roger.
He's a local bloke here in capitown.
He performed a complete re-build of the engine on his 450SE.  In fact for the price the car was listed at (I'm pretty sure it's not sold yet) it was a steal...will have to dig up how much he wanted. 
I know he got all the parts from various online sources local and overseas.  And being he did all the re-build work himself he saved a truckload of coin.  And it's one of the sexiest engine bays i've ever seen. 
MAINLY, cause I knew under all that tidy looking steel was new internals.

On suspension - let me know if you're going to be looking at getting some speccy Bilsteins.  I just got mine from the states.  Heavy Duty ones.  They took about 2 weeks.  But they only cost $500 inclusive of postage.  Compared to the $900 they would've cost from a dealer here (and that was trade price).

I know you've got the spare heads as well... but I also have a spare set of what were Australian heads (I think) that are pulled down etc..  And they're yours for postage and a song if you want.. i'll never get to use them again.

On a completely different note, you might be better off talking to Roger and buying his whole 450SE off him, transporting it to Perth and then swapping the complete engine / transmission (also had a re-build).... but that might be going too far. 

[TJ 450]

I'll keep all that in mind, Cam.

With the suspension, the plan is to rebuild the front end in terms of bushings, ball joints and the remaining steering components. Billstein HDs would be brilliant, but I would have to consider removing the SLS rear in that case.

I'll remember those cylinder heads of yours, as there's a good chance that corrosion has set in on all of these.

When I remove the heads from the existing engine, I'll have a very good look at the condition of the bores etc.

The aim of this is to have a smooth running 450 with the performance I know they're supposed to have and no smoke out the exhaust.

Tim

[TJ 450]

I pulled the RH head from the Euro tonight.

Nice clean valves, honing marks still visible in all bores, carbon just wipes off.





If only the cooling system had been looked after...







Nobody wants caves in their cylinder heads!

Tim

[Big_Richard]

holy shit, those coolant channels are feral!

Are these heads even worth anything like that ?

[TJ 450]

That cavity should actually be a flat surface, the one to the right of it should just be a shallow round bore. 

I think they are beyond it, although the other parts can be removed and salvaged.

Tim

[s class]

The block and pistons do look nice though.  Are those euro pistons with the recessed area?