450SE - What is 'high mileage'?

[graham]

Following the sad (well, for me it is!) tale of my not getting a 6.9, I have (too?) quickly found a nice-looking cream/white 1978 450 with 320,000km, tan leather and (as far as I can tell from pics) no sunroof. It was imported new from Oz and first sold in NZ.

It may have stood around in Oz for a while as first date of registration is shown as 5th October 1979 - maybe this is why it was imported to NZ?

Asking price is a little (imho) high at NZ$7000.

Presumably a well-serviced 450 won't even sniff at 320,000km... But what should I look for? (I will do my own research too, of course!)

[Casey]

Do you *want* no sunroof?!?  I won't buy a car without a sunroof unless it's cheap and just for parts.  I'd say that mileage isn't bad at all, pretty average for what can be found for sale around here.  It will likely need some tuning and kinks worked out initially, but I wouldn't worry about that mileage at all on a M117.

The M117 is nicknamed "the Laster" amongst Mercedes' petrol engines.  I think it'll start showing it's age at around 1.2 million km, given proper care.

I have two K-jet 450's, one with more miles than 320k km and pretty neglected (lots of rust and horrible el-cheapo repair jobs) - both run great and have a lot of power.

"I've driven a number of early 4.5-liter SLs with 750,000 or more on their engines," said Rugg. "At a million miles they get a little edgy". That may be stretching things just a bit, according to Cunha and Marx. But both agree the iron-block V-8s are exceptionally long-lived. "Around 350,000 before a bottom-end overhaul isn't unrealistic," said Cunha. "The top end is often good for 180,000-240,000 miles." And from Marx, "I have some customers with at least 300,000 miles on their cars and the engines haven't even needed valve jobs" ("MERCEDES-BENZ 350 / 450 / 380 / 560 SLs: Status-symbol bargains for the not-so rich and famous," by PETER BOHR).

[graham]

In my experience, sunroofs leak. Especially in climates like NZ where sun on the seals dries them out, allowing water in which then rots the seal, the steel, and anything else it can get to, allowing more water to get in... Also, headlinings tend to detach because of the humidity - and that's easier to sort out without a sunroof.

Finally, older cars with sunroofs have a tendency to be able to open them, but they don't always close as readily. That could be awkward.

It has windows. I can always open them.

Interesting quote - thanks. It looks like another 150,000km should be feasible before anything serious needs doing, and then only if hasn't been looked after.

Waiting for a call back about the 24v. Maybe a 450 and a 300E-24? I'd ask if I'm being greedy, but... ;-)

[Casey]

Mercedes sunroofs are extremely reliable, and can always be manually closed/opened from the trunk if necessary. Any leaks will be evacuated via the 4 drainage tube assuming they are intact and not clogged. Change the seals and lube and maybe drainage tube rubber more than once every 35-40 years and enjoy trouble-free fast smooth operation. Not a big deal at all. Having a sunroof is well worth it in my opinion. It's a whole different thing than the windows, does not create the wind and noise that opening the windows does.  I've seen exactly one sunroof with rust issues in the tray from clogged drainage tubes (PO decided rather than fixing them he'd silicon up the seals but after cutting through that the power sunroof still works fine). That entire car is very rusty all over. If I keep it I'll swap the sunroof tray; an hour or two's work.  To each their own though.

I'll take more objection to the want for a W124. My last Mercedes before getting into W116's was a W124. Good power but an utterly boring car that I'm glad to be rid of. It was the least favorite of all Mercedes I've owned. I did like it better than the Corolla, though, for whatever that's worth.

I'm not opinionated or anything, really.

Ivory is a lovely color for W116's, my first 300SD's that color. W124/W126's look ridiculous in that color though. $7000 seems very high for a 450 with that mileage, hope it is in outstanding shape.

[graham]

I thought MB sunroofs were reliable, until the one in my brother's W123 stopped working and proved to need a new try. My W126 300SE had a sunroof that would open halfway and close again; open it more than halfway and it was a 'go to the boot' job to get it closed. Then it decided it didn't want to sit flush with the roof once closed.

A W114 we saw here in NZ had the same problem as the 300SE - it wouldn't close easily. Nice car though - bright yelllow!

I entirely agree regarding the white colour. The W123/W116 shape (and the older W114/5) looked good in white. For some reason, W124, W126 and W202 just don't. IMHO, etc.

A W124 on Sportline suspension is a nice car to drive. I had an AMG E36 estate (station wagon, whatever!) and that was a truly stunning car. The look on the faces of people in Porsche Boxsters and the like when they first couldn't shake me, and then when being overtaken, was fantastic! OK, so that car is a bit special. (I've also drive a Brabus W124-7.3 which was another game altogether.      )

Bear in mind that the purpose of the W124 is for it to be driven every day, to be comfortable, and not to cost a lot of money while looking like it might do. They are a capable car, if less inspiring than a W116 or contemporary.

[Casey]

Completely unrelated, but how do you enjoy New Zealand? I would think it is an absolutely wonderful place to live.

[graham]

Completely unrelated, but how do you enjoy New Zealand? I would think it is an absolutely wonderful place to live.

So far, it has been entirely fabulous. Really, really nice. We've been helped enormously by knowing a few people here, but we did move without ever having visited, and with no family 'safety net' here. Certainly we have had no second thoughts.

It's so nice, even when it's raining.   

Of course, I've not formally started work yet, so everything could change!

[JasonP]

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[Beastie]

A well cared for 450 should go practically forever. At least, the engine should. But 300,000kms is a lot for any car so there could be all the usual signs of wear - interior wear, tired paint with dull appearance, dull chrome, rubbers and seals be all cracked, the electrical systems might be a bit buggy, the heater might be problematic, all things like that.
It depends on how well the car has been maintained over the years. In my experience, many of these cars are on their third or fourth owner by now and any of these owners may have neglected the car in various ways, especially now that they can be bought cheap and are often bought by... rogues and scoundrels. Which leads me to my other point: A lot of people seem to think that these cars are indestructible and that they are self-healing. They're not. They need constant, specialized, highly fancy maintenance which many owners do not realise or care about, and some of them just get driven into the ground this way.
These cars are a bit less analogue a lot more complex than older Mercs and from what I'm learning, they tend to develop more of those 'little problems' as they age, whereas some of the older models were a bit more simple in their engineering, if that makes sense. I understand what you mean about not wanting a sunroof - If you don't see much appeal in having one, they can really be considered as something that's there solely to break eventually and cause annoyance. And New Zealand isn't exactly known for it's endless sunny days and warm nights.

I think that if it doesn't show its age, and upon seeing it and driving it you can scarcely believe that it has done so many miles, and if the only real evidence you can find to show high mileage is the odometer and a long list of service receipts, then it's been well cared for and would be worth serious consideration without too much trepidation. But if it looks old and tired or if it has umpteen little problems with it that the owner hasn't fixed, or if it sounds old and rattly, or if there's obvious signs of cheap maintenance or repairs (such as a poor respray job or lots of non-OEM parts or modifications) then I would personally pass it by and keep looking for a better one. But yeah, a 'better one' might have even higher mileage! It all depends on condition, history and how well groomed the current owners beard is. The mileage can often be of little concern if these others factors are as they should be.



I've never owned a V8 but I'm always seeing and hearing people talk about how the timing chain and chain tensioner needs replacing/adjusting on them, especially when the miles get high. So watch out for that and maybe search around the site here for more info about it, unless a V8 owner chimes in here to explain in more detail it, and some other things to look out for on them.

[s class]

I wouldn't bother with a sunroof.  Most of my W116's have sunroofs, and I'm pretty confident I haven't even tried opening some of them once.  I did try opening the blue 6.9's roof, and it jammed and scraped the paint off the outside of the lid. 

$7k is seriously high for a 450 unless it is an oustanding car with a thick pile of receipts to back it up. 

[graham]

Pics of the car in question. Lookin' good in white! 

"Originally imported new from Australia, great history for such a tidy and original vehicle of its age .

New warrant and rego.

I have replaced any parts it needed etc new ignition leads , distributor cap , plugs , good tyres etc."

We've all seen descriptions like this before - why are sellers so lazy? The proof is in the pudding. Or metal, as the case may be.

As ever, it looks nice in the pictures. The tyres may be 'good', but don't look to have a huge amount of tread remaining. Still, I have the 15" Pentas en route, so that's not the end of the world.

But tyres are the least of the concerns - they're easy. If expensive.

I'll take a proper look.

[TJ 450]

A car without a sunroof is less likely to leak, and thus is less likely to have rusted out floor pans. That's my line of thinking.

They are pleasurable when working and not leaking though.

The thing that kills the M117 is the timing chain/guides/tensioner. I'd factor in having all this replaced as a matter of course.

Tim

[Casey]

The thing that kills the M117 is the timing chain/guides/tensioner. I'd factor in having all this replaced as a matter of course.

Isn't that all engines though? Seems many brands need their timing chains replaced twice as often as MB's and the same issue exists on the diesels which are well-known for longetivity.

Beastie makes great points about all the non-engine worries. Unless its already been done recently, to set everything right will take several thousand worth of rubber (OEM) and a fair bit of labor to replace it all, particularly the suspension bits, but it will make all the difference in the world if it's needing done.

Receipts are good, but often depressing. Receipts often indicate poor-quality replacement parts that you're going to have to replace, lol. GOOD, regular maintenance and consistent use of OEM parts could make the $7000 price tag a nice deal, but it had better look and drive brilliantly. You really cannot gauge that from outside the vehicle - you have to give it a spirited test drive and crawl around underneath and poke around.

This is NOT white. I don't like white NEARLY as much. This is Ivory, and is absolutely beautiful. Mine has a tobacco brown interior, in MB-tex. Looks like the leather has been very well-preserved which hopefully indicates good care and regular garaging. Check the top of the back seat for brittleness though.  And pull out the rear seat bottom to see if there has been leaking or a dodgy reupholstery job on the past.

I'd start typing up a list, but there should be some threads about the common W116 issues to check for if you search around.

[s class]

The thing that kills the M117 is the timing chain/guides/tensioner. I'd factor in having all this replaced as a matter of course.

Isn't that all engines though? Seems many brands need their timing chains replaced twice as often as MB's and the same issue exists on the diesels which are well-known for longetivity.

It is a particular weakness of the M116 and M117 engines due to their non-ratchetting tensioner.  The M110 and M100 use ratchetting designs, so although periodic chain replacement is necessary on these as well, failing to do so is not usually catastrophic like it is for the M116 and M117.

[Tony66_au]

I think the best way to tackle the true condition of a car is to truly know what you are looking at as the signs vary from Marque to Marque, Or pay an expert in the field to inspect the car for you.

As for front or rear end bushes etc?

Id suggest that if all of them needed replacement then the car wouldn't be worth much at all because the knock on effect of minor wear or failure is very noticable and if the entire set was flogged out the car would be a hairy proposition to drive.

So you replace the worst first and always do it in pairs and then over time work your way through the whole set.