Fellows, this is an issue that its at the top of the list of things to do on the 77. The sunroof is stuck closed, about 3 millimeters away from the fully closed position (on the way up). If I push the switch, I can hear the motor spinning fast in either direction but there is no movement on the sunroof. The other bummer is that actuating the manual crank in the trunk yields the same result: no movement, so I'm thinking the cable is either broken or worn, or the teeth on the actuator on the motor are worn, I don't think the clutch is engaged trying to protect the motor/components.
So my next step is to disconnect the cable from the sunroof and start troubleshooting from there, but how do I remove the s-roof liner in the closed position?
Also any other ideas are highly appreciated!
Thanks.
Assuming that manual cranking is easy enough but ineffectual (ie: the cable isn't seized in its tubing), it sounds like the teeth are worn off the cable in the fully-closed position (more likely than the teeth on the motor-gear being worn) - you could try removing the motor from the tube in the trunk to see if this is the case - this will also allow you to remove the section of tube behind the motor (nearest the rear lights), which will expose the end of the cable, allowing you to pull it backwards, thus opening the roof panel enough to remove its liner. You can then access and remove the cable from under the roof panel and fit a good used one.
Removing the motor and gearbox from the tubing/cable means disassembling the gearbox, so note how everything fits, etc, especially the order and orientation of the gear-sprockets.
Thanks for the suggestion! I was able to open it half way by hand - pushing no too hard on it with the help of another person. I removed the liner and it doesn't look good, the cable is kinked in at least 2 spots behind the s-roof, removed the circlip and of course the cable doesn't want to come out because of the kinks :(
Next step is the removal of the headliner and feed (guide) the cable out. By the looks of it, so far I added the cable to the part order, but I need to assess the tube and also all the sliding jaws. I will also add all the seals for good measure, although they look to be in decent condition.
By replacing all these parts, I guess it would be a good idea to also remove the motor and inspect/clean/lubricate the sprockets - for this step shall I also use the "Gleitpaste" - which is also on order, or something else?
When you say the cable is kinked, do you mean the cable itself, or the tubing it travels in - it shouldn't be possible for any kinking to occur if the cable is in its tubing.
Note that the cable won't come out if the circlip/pin device at the very front of the rigid section is still in place, but it also won't come out if the motor gearbox is still assembled around it in the boot/trunk.
You shouldn't need to remove the headliner to remove the cable (thankfully, as it's a big job). If the cable's outer tubing is damaged enough to need replacing, you'll need to remove a lot of trim as well as the headliner, so hopefully it's ok.
The gleitpaste grease is only needed for the sliding jaws (it's a silicone-based grease, so it won't be turned to a sticky glue by the sun's heat in the roof area, like regular axle grease would). However, this isn't an issue in the sunroof motor gearbox, so regular wheel bearing-type grease can be used there.
Very good info, thanks again! By the looks of it, it is thankfully (and hopefully) just the cable, not the tubing that is kinked - I took a picture below. I have removed the clip at the front of the rigid section, not the motor/gearbox section... I will try that next and hopefully it will come out.
Here is the mess (Tube on the left is the sunroof guide and looking towards the back of the car):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/florin/Mobile%20Uploads/20160713_204706_zps95dk1rfy.jpg)
I think there is another issue that is not very apparent in the picture above, but the tube inside the headliner does not seem to line up with the guide tube on the sunroof and I think that may be the reason the cable kinked the way it did. Is there anything holding the tube in place at the back? (can't see much without removing the liner)
And secondly, while the main reason for all this was to make the sunroof operational, I also wanted to ensure that the sliding jaws are in good shape and I'm afraid there is another problem here; Now with the cable disconnected from the sunroof panel, I am only able to manually open it about 50-60%. Closing it, I don't seem to be able to push it upwards at the end of the closing cycle, to make the back side of the panel flush with the car roof. I did not force the opening or the closing, but any ideas if I can assess/service the sliding jaws and clean up/grease the mechanisms without removing the sunroof assembly?
I know you probably don't want to hear this but you have gone this far, might as well remove it completely and service it properly. Just think how nice it will be once it works perfectly again after doing it once properly 8)
I hear you, Dan! Just one more task to add to the 2 km long laundry list :'(
That photo is weird - the cable should be covered by tubing all the way from the motor to the roof panel - it shouldn't be possible for the cable to be exposed like that, otherwise kinking like in the photo is inevitable... is there a part missing?
I have no idea, although the picture was taken with the roof closed and the portion that is not covered by the tube is the same length as the sunroof retracting distance. I am not sure whether there is anything missing, maybe someone else can chime in.
I found this picture and it appears that the tube starts way back to allow for sunroof clearance in the opened position:
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll69/lukasland/350SE/Sunroof/2008-06-07Mercedes13.jpg)
The end of the tube that the cable resides in ends at the rear edge of the sunroof opening. This tube also goes through the rear of the sunroof frame, and is held in with two 6mm sheet metal screws. Judging from the picture you showed us, it looks as if your tube is either missing or is bent so badly we can't see it. Either way, you're going to have to remove the headliner an the whole sunroof assembly/frame. I just don't see any way around this. What makes things worse is that neither the cable or the tube are available any longer. Even when you do find a used one, you have to take into account whether or not the one you find is for a long or a short wheel base car.
Thanks UTn_boy, the headliner removal is next on the list (hopefully will get it done tomorrow). Once that comes off, I will be able to see what's inside and post some pictures as well.
I just placed an order for the cable (1167800089 - applicable to SEL models), this place claims to have stock. I'll probably find out on Monday whether they are shipping a package to me or refunding (hopefully not the latter).
Some progress and mostly bad news for me. Saturday, I removed the sunroof assembly from the car. Procedure was straight forward based on the writeup I found on another forum with supporting pics. The headliner trim pieces also came out without a fight. Good!
Here is what I found: the rigid metal tube is there, however it somehow lost the bracket that is supposed to keep it bolted to the rear of the sunroof assembly. Some backyard mechanic attempted to fix it by improvising a bracket, solution failed most likely soon after implementation therefore destroying the cable (see the cable picture a few posts up)...
The good: there is minimal surface rust on the pan, close to the draining holes. Also, the sliders appear to be in decent condition, aside from me breaking one.
The bad: California sun beat down on this car for 37 years, meaning that the 4 drain hoses were so dried up and welded to the metallic drains that they all broke as soon as I touched them.
The ugly: By the looks of it, I need to replace the tube and some sources point to the rear windscreen needing to come out (any ideas if this is required)?
So far, I ended up ordering these parts:
-All sliding jaws (13 pcs) - awaiting confirmation on delivery
-Sunroof cable (apparently NOS, still awaiting order confirmation from the slow German Parts LLC cust svc.) Have a good used one lined up locally as a back up
-Sunroof tube, found it used locally
-Sunroof paste
-Sunroof Foam seal - awaiting confirmation on delivery
-Front and rear sunroof seals - awaiting confirmation on delivery
-Sunroof seal brushes - side- - awaiting confirmation on delivery
Still need to figure out the drain hose situation, but I have at least 2 weeks before the other parts show up and I can reassemble everything. Any suggestions on where to source the tubing and any tips for replacing?
Here are some pics:
What the tube bracket should look like:
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/WGB_album/Cableretainer.jpg)
The tube on my car:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/florin/Mobile%20Uploads/20160716_155344_zpsyqi6i2ci.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/florin/Mobile%20Uploads/20160716_155422_zps6yv1boss.jpg)
"improvised" bracket:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/florin/Mobile%20Uploads/20160720_221933_zpsxms0ll9u.jpg)
As you can tell, this is turning out to be a very frustrating chapter, hopefully once I get everything installed I won't have to worry about the sunroof for another 37 years.
Cannot help much but aren't you glad that you decided to drop the whole assembly?Now at least you can fix it right and once only 8)
The tubing for the sunroof drains is still available for about $40.00 USD per meter. Part number 003-997-63-82. Glad you found the problem, too!
I'm certain that the back glass doesn't have to come out to replace the drain tubing. It's not a fun job to replace the drain tubing, but pretty straight forward.
Quote from: daantjie on 21 July 2016, 09:57 AM
Cannot help much but aren't you glad that you decided to drop the whole assembly?Now at least you can fix it right and once only 8)
True, although I am missing out on being able to drive the car all these weekends and the summer is so damn short here in Ontario... Should be as good as new when it goes back in.
Quote from: UTn_boy on 21 July 2016, 05:04 PM
The tubing for the sunroof drains is still available for about $40.00 USD per meter. Part number 003-997-63-82. Glad you found the problem, too!
I'm certain that the back glass doesn't have to come out to replace the drain tubing. It's not a fun job to replace the drain tubing, but pretty straight forward.
Thanks for the P/N! Do you have any idea what would the total length be (for all 4 tubes), so I can go ahead and order prior to removing the old ones? I found a couple older posts that indicate the fronts being 107cm, any idea on the rears?
Also, I was referring to the cable metallic tube that may be the one requiring the rear glass to come out. I saw that in the service manual on this site, but by the looks of it they suggest that so you can take the tube in and out of the passenger compartment through the large glass opening (the procedure describes the tube coming forward into the pass. compartment once disconnected and unbolted). I surely hope I can somehow maneuver it through either the sunroof, or the rear door opening.
Hi Karmann
I've been there, done that. Well not me exactly, I sent the car in to John Haynes to get my sunroof repair:
http://forum.w116.org/test-drive/my-first-w116-here-at-last/msg101522/#msg101522 (http://forum.w116.org/test-drive/my-first-w116-here-at-last/msg101522/#msg101522)
You need to order 6 metres of "Hose, Drain, VLRU" part number MA003 997 63 82. Really its no special tubing, save yourself the tremendous cost, and buy some good quality tubing off the shelf. Oh, by the way as you have been unable to pull a cord through the channel when removing the sunroof drains, use some strimmer wire, the thick plastic cord, and you should be able to find the pathway easy. And if you do go the gold plated way, measure twice cut once!
Good luck, hope you're weather-tight again soon.
Gavin
Thanks alot Gavin, those were the surprises I was worrying about (rust in the tray), but so far so good - knock on wood! A rough calculation points to US$ 240 to get all the hose required, time to call a few industrial suppliers and see what's available. Main issue may be finding a standard (imperial - inches) ID hose close enough to the metric tubing used on these cars.
Hat's off for attempting something this big yourself!
Thank you Stan!
Another update, removed the rear seat and C pillar cover which allowed me to remove the s-roof cable tube, but only after removing the motor assembly in the trunk. Happy to report that the rear glass didn't have to come out (UTn_boy you were correct and I'm so happy you were!). There was a bit of fiddling required because the tube has a rubber coating on it that prevents it from sliding out easily, also it doesn't come straight out, it follows a certain path. My advice is do it slowly (patience!!!) and have one person holding the tube in the car, while a second one pushes it out from the trunk. There were 2 objectives here: to learn as much as possible for the installation of the replacement tube and try not to damage the old one, as I want to compare it with the new one to ensure the size and shape is similar.
Further, I also removed the s-roof panel from the tracks/assembly (which has been sitting in my basement for a week) and inspected the rear lifter mechanisms for damage (none found).
Not much for me to do on this subject for a while (until the parts show up), other than cleaning the superficial rust around the front drains and remove the old gasket material.
I just finished a massive sunroof/tray rust redemption on my car as it needed major work on the roof edges, new seals, and.. what else? The tray turned out to be over the edge, but I had little hope of finding much better. So: grinding, sandblasting, fiberglass, epoxy, POR-15, hours. I'd post pictures but they're too frightening (and I'm having upload issues)! Anyway, a few notes on what I did (not for everyone):
- I removed the sunroof itself before the tray, which can then be pulled out the front passenger side door.. if you move the shifter to low position.
- Drain tubes. I used 1/2" ID clear vinyl tubing from HD. The originals crumbled in my hands so I wasn't so impressed (only 37 years?!). I pre-stretched the ends for a few days because it was a pretty tight fit. I fished a pull line through the forward drain tubes before removing them (using compressed air), and pulled the new tubing while pulling out the old from inside the cabin, spraying WD40 on the tubing first. Not too hard. I trimmed to final length afterward while the tray was out. The rears were pretty easy (also note one of the originals was crimped, part of the problem?).
- Foam Gasket. Also off-the-shelf (insulating foam strips for the thicker rear half, and rubberized roof flashing for the thinner forward half). Seeing where my tray rusted I suspect the original gasket absorbed water and there it sat, and rusted. After adhering the new foam to the tray, I sealed the interior edge by "painting" it with several coats of silicone caulking. Hopefully that will prevent the foam from absorbing water.
- My nylon guide shoes were ok but I had to fabricate replacements for the NLA fuzzy rubber shoes at the forward corners (using HDPE).
- The left/right and height adjustments are an iterative process. There are specs in the library, section 77-110.
- I'm back to driving my sunroof around. It works like new?! Note-to-self: Lubricate, and clean your sunroof drains regularly. :-)
Those are some very good points Mark! At least you had no cable/tube issues.
5/8" ID hose is widely available and is only 1mm larger (~16mm vs 15mm). I am picking up 18' for less than $20.
Yeah, the picture of your cable was gruesome! What an odd failure.
I forgot to mention that the front seal (from Meyle) had cross sections quite a bit larger than the one I removed, from about 15 years ago. That one was not installed correctly and it's no wonder; I don't see HOW it can be installed without dropping the tray and re-capturing it. You might want to install it on the tray before or while bolting the tray back in place.
I'm not terribly happy with the fit of my new seal, but at least now I'm not afraid of water going down the drain.. ;-)
Quote from: markb on 27 July 2016, 09:42 PM
Yeah, the picture of your cable was gruesome! What an odd failure.
I forgot to mention that the front seal (from Meyle) had cross sections quite a bit larger than the one I removed, from about 15 years ago. That one was not installed correctly and it's no wonder; I don't see HOW it can be installed without dropping the tray and re-capturing it. You might want to install it on the tray before or while bolting the tray back in place.
I'm not terribly happy with the fit of my new seal, but at least now I'm not afraid of water going down the drain.. ;-)
Thanks for the tip again!
Sunroof is back in, all greased up and adjusted, new drain tubing all around.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/florin/Mobile%20Uploads/20160824_192756_zps8e19psxt.jpg)
It opened and closed very smoothly a couple times and then something happened that prevented the full closing. Didn't take long to figure it out, I don't think I attached the tube to the motor properly (pic below). Does anybody know if the flared portion of the tube has to fit into the cutout that can be seen to its left and underneath the bolt, or how does it need to fit with the motor? Right now it isn't inserted all the way into the clip behind.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/florin/Mobile%20Uploads/20161002_180835_zps6jzfy7db.jpg)
Thanks!
It's supposed to fit into that cutout.