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Restoring 450SE

Started by bolbol, 02 March 2006, 02:02 PM

bolbol


Hi there,

I have read most of the posts and I think this is the greatest forum ever.

My project started the day before yesterday. I changed oils,filters, fuel pump , and did some basic mechanical tests, and with a new battery, started my 450SE that has been parking for more than 7 years.

Today, I took all the upholstery and carpitting out and there seems to be a lot of rust, please chick photos.

I would like to know, is rust manageable in a workshop no matter what ? or are there limitations ?
Also what is this material MB installs in the cabin floors,under the carpetting ? its like asphalt based pads,and how do I take it out ?
Any help and hints from you guys regarding restoration will be appreciated.

Thanks

alabbasi

Congratulations on starting the restoration. In answer to your question (is the rust manageable?) Well...... Anything can be done.. all it takes is time, money and a MIG welder. I restored a 450sel recently and had similar rust issues. Unfortunately MB no longer makes the floor pans so you either have to buy them used (from a rust free car) or make them yourself.

The pads are for noise insulation and could also be a water trap. Wedge your hands in between them and the floor and you will feel lots of rust from the inside of the car. More likely from a bad windscreen seal.

Here are some pictures of my restoration.
http://www.alabbasi.net/450SEL.htm

Go through the phases and you will see where your car rusts.
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

bolbol

#2
Alabbasi, In One word; very inspiring. what a great job you have done. Your car looks amazing.  I was thinking of changing the color of my car, which is Silver like yours, but now I made up my mind to keep it the same.


Did you fit new original pads for insulation in the cabin floor or did you use market insulator ?



Thanks again for your help.

alabbasi

I went back with the original ones. Even though the floor was shot, the pads are good.
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

OzBenzHead

Quote from: alabbasi on 02 March 2006, 02:09 PMUnfortunately MB no longer makes the floor pans ...

Ali (and bolbol): It's my understanding that DC - through its Stuttgart M-B Classic Center - guarantees to supply any part for any vehicle they've ever produced; if they don't have stock they will manufacture the piece for you (no doubt at a price!).  I have seen this claim made on an official M-B site (but can't find it now as I didn't bookmark the page); probably somewhere under "History" or "Classic Center".

That said, I have heard of (Stateside) operators who manufacture body parts and panels to order. A guy in a town near me (Byron Bay, Australia) had new sills (complete - inner and outer) made for his W113 280SL; they were superbly made out of heavy-gauge (even heavier than the originals!) galvanised steel by some operation in (I think) Atlanta GA.  Okay, that was about 10 years ago, nevertheless ...
[img width=340 height=138][url="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png"]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png[/url][/img]

Mforcer

Quote from: OzBenzHead on 02 March 2006, 10:25 PM
It's my understanding that DC - through its Stuttgart M-B Classic Center - guarantees to supply any part for any vehicle they've ever produced; if they don't have stock they will manufacture the piece for you (no doubt at a price!).  I have seen this claim made on an official M-B site (but can't find it now as I didn't bookmark the page); probably somewhere under "History" or "Classic Center".

This is true and confirmed to me personally when I toured their workshop last year. They even confirmed that all parts are made in the original method using the original materials. Just make sure you are sitting down when you see their prices!

The good news for our friends in the USA is that a Classic Centre has opened up there (not sure exactly where at the moment). Now all you guys just need to start saving for that as-new factory restoration! :)
Michael
1977 450SE [Brilliant Red]
2006 B200

bolbol

My local MB Authorized Dealer, after giving him Chassis and VIN number, sent an email to MB Germany for a quotation on engine and gearbox, I Kidd you not he quoted me $24,000 for new engine and $12,000 for gearbox.

No Comment.

Tomorrow I am taking the car their for a quotation on body work. They still have one of the best body shops.


OzBenzHead

Quote from: bolbol on 03 March 2006, 02:38 AM... he quoted me $24,000 for new engine and $12,000 for gearbox.

That's the reason that many of us in Oz refer to official M-B shops as "stealerships".

My main parts supplier imports OEM parts direct from the OEMs; they're the exact same, genuine, branded and part-numbered items as you'd get from an M-B stealership but because they (a) don't go to DC and get put in an expensive M-B-branded box, and (b) don't go through a local M-B official stealership, they are actually affordable - typically one-fifth (or less!) of the M-B stealership retail price.
[img width=340 height=138][url="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png"]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png[/url][/img]

John Hubertz

We should start a "sticky thread" listing low and reduced cost new/reproduction/used parts sources!

That would be HANDY

J
John Hubertz
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
(Hunter S. Thompson) 

1977 450SEL (Max Headroom)
[img width=68 height=73][url="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f248/fullhappyfish/max.jpg"]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f248/fullhappyfish/max.jpg[/url][/img]

alabbasi

Dealership said he could not find it, and he contacted the classic center. He did say that if there is enough demand, they will do a production run.
With best regards

Al
Dallas, TX USA.

John Hubertz

As always - I'd vote for either T-Wiley in Memphis or car-part.com   

On car-part, if you do a "Southwest only" regional search for doors, you'll wind up with a list of recyclers in AZ, NM, TX, California who have 116 bodies. Since it is an SE, just search for a rear door and you'll get a list of 280/450SE short wheelbase cars only with the correct rear pans.

Then you just have to talk them into cutting out the pans.  Money is the language they speak.  Be SUPER generous about dimensions you'll be needing as they will be using a torch.  Might as well get the rocker panels also....  all one buy is the way to go.  Have them cut in sections so the components can be economically shipped via UPS - unless you are willing to go pick up a whole pan yourself.....  While you're at it check your spare tire well - a common rust spot.

Offer to prepay - yards that don't sell certain items suddenly become quite interested.

John
John Hubertz
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
(Hunter S. Thompson) 

1977 450SEL (Max Headroom)
[img width=68 height=73][url="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f248/fullhappyfish/max.jpg"]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f248/fullhappyfish/max.jpg[/url][/img]

bolbol

So today I take my baby to MB dealership for a quotation on body work. I did pull some strings, so the manager of MB service department was waiting for me. So we spent an hour chicking the car out, let me state that rust has got its way into rocker panels,  trunk "wills", and around five inches into the sills from both sides of the front, thats it, not as bad as I though and not as bad as I have seen some cars in this great forum before restoration.

So He quoted me around $20,000 for a "replacement" of parts and bodywork, and  at the end he said:" My professional opinion, I concider this car obsolete, just cross it out, its not worth it". At that moment, I thought about all of you guys in this forum, and I smiled at him and I told him, this car will be restored allright, but no thanks to MB, but to those people who know better; and I told him about this forum and what you guys have done. He stated that it will never be back to the same way MB made it,,, I agreed and said , it will even be better ;D

Later today, I went and got quotaions from the very best top three body shops in town. Estimates where between $900-1300 !!! Can you believe the difference compared to MB ??

The reasons I am stating details about my restoration project are:
First: I don't want other current or new owners  of MB 116 to be discouraged, no matter what, by others from trying to see end results of what they think is feasible.

Second: To emphasize the importance of this great forum and the people contributing to it. You will know what I mean when I am done with my project.

Thanks to You All.

OzBenzHead

Quote from: bolbol on 04 March 2006, 06:57 PM... Can you believe the difference compared to MB ?? ...

Yes, I can!

Bolbol: It's good to see you're (a) proceding with the restoration, and (b) that you've seen the way to go. Please keep us posted on progress (photos would be good from beginning to end of project).

Enjoy the process; you'll doubtless enjoy the results!   :)

BTW: I sometimes think the outrageous prices the stealerships quote for work is their way of saying they're not interested in older models; they'd rather sell you a new car. My local stealership proprietor was honest enough to tell me, right from the start many years ago, that they were neither equipped, skilled, nor interested, and that I should take my work (and parts orders) elsewhere for better value and service! (Okay, so it's a small town where honesty is, inevitably, unavoidable - unless you want a bad reputation.)
[img width=340 height=138][url="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png"]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png[/url][/img]

bolbol

#13
Update

First, thank you all for your comments and tips, you have been very helpfull.

Tip: I personally took the all the upholstery and carpiting off and stored them in my garage except for the driver seat, and drove to various workshops to get estimates. This was good because if I didn't, a workshop has to take the seats and carpets off and chick for rust and then give me an estimates, by then its too late to drive somewhere else.

Work has started, there are 4 teams working on the car, body workshop, MB electrician, Mechanical shop and me working with all of them.



I decided to take every thing apart, so now engine, transmission and most of electrical wiring is out.


Do you guys think rapping wires and hoses with duct tape could improve looks in engine compartment ?? any suggestions to make engine compartment look cool ? I am also thinking of Chroming engine head covers and Air intake base and cover ??

Thanks
Bolbol


OzBenzHead

Quote from: bolbol on 20 March 2006, 10:09 AMI am also thinking of Chroming engine head covers and Air intake base and cover ??

Bolbol: Chrome-plating will reduce the ability of the plated parts to dissipate heat. I have seen many an engine cooked by the injudicious application of chrome to manifolds, rocker covers, and - yes - even heads! I wouldn't go there if I were you.

There are other means of polishing - and retaining the finish - on such items: high-temperature coatings, including clear, are available. Check these sites:

http://www.por15.com/ or
http://www.ppc.au.com/
http://www.zoops.com/zoopseal.asp
[img width=340 height=138][url="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png"]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/OzBenzHead/10%20M-B%20Miscellany/OBH_LOGO-2a-1.png[/url][/img]