I'm restoring my 450SEL

[James R]

I don't think anyone buys any W116 for investment purposes do they ? I can't see even 6.9's going up in value. They won't go down either and their prices will always be higher but my point is that I would rather spend the money I've saved by not buying a 6.9 on restoring a standard 450. Yes, I'll have less power (and therefore less kudos, I guess) but I will have a great condition W116 and better than a lot of unrestored 6.9s (and so more kudos). Yes, it'll still not be worth what I've spent on it but nevertheless that's what appeals to me with a limited budget (limited by what Bomber Command will let me spend on it).

James

[michaeld]

Oooo, that was below the belt.

I don't think anyone buys any W116 for investment purposes do they ? I can't see even 6.9's going up in value. They won't go down either and their prices will always be higher but my point is that I would rather spend the money I've saved by not buying a 6.9 on restoring a standard 450. Yes, I'll have less power (and therefore less kudos, I guess) but I will have a great condition W116 and better than a lot of unrestored 6.9s (and so more kudos). Yes, it'll still not be worth what I've spent on it but nevertheless that's what appeals to me with a limited budget (limited by what Bomber Command will let me spend on it).

Adamb,
I sincerely did NOT mean to hit below the belt.  I wanted to point out that - for restoration purposes - ANY w116 is pretty much equally intelligent or equally stupid.

My brother has restored three cars: a 56 Chevy F-150 truck, a 55 Chevy Nomad station wagon, and a 64 Ford Thunderbird.  In the first two cases, he figured he made about $3 for every dollar he put into it.  But, given the fact that he spent many hundreds of hours on each, he actually lost money.  And these vehicles,
BTW, are pretty sought after on the classic antique collectibles market.  On the 64 Tbird, he did little better than break even in terms of his investment (and of course made nothing for his hundreds of hours of time).  The 64s were "big birds" and are simply not as desirable on the market.

I quote Jame's post to reinforce his point: he's completely right.  If you are restoring a vehicle for the sake of investment, you are rather a fool to pour a ton of money into a w116.  ANY 116.  They are the LEAST collectible of the older Benzes.  The people who ARE restoring 116s are doing so for their own subjective reasons/gratification.  And every one of us has their own reasons for preferring what they prefer.

I didn't mean to come across as attacking you in any way.  I sincerely apologize if I made you feel that I was singling you out for criticism.  I was trying to use your question as a foil to address the above point, and I was trying to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.  I wasn't intending to be nasty or rude. 

Now, you also quote me on my statement to John about being (mostly) English and of being appreciative to the U.K., to Australia, and to their respective peoples for their standing up with Americans as allies.  I can't apologize for either my "Englishness" OR for my gratitude; I can only say I didn't mean to offend.

In the United States, only American Indians didn't come from somewhere else.  Oh, scratch that: the American Indians immigrated to North America too (they just did it before the rest of us).  The USA is a nation of immigrants, and by and large (with certain notable historic failures) we've done a good job of allowing people to come from all over and start a new life as Americans.  So I - and basically every other American citizen - am a "mongrel" as well.  And I can also state with - sometimes with regret - that for the most part, the most loyal, fervently patriotic American citizens were born in some other land and KISS THE EARTH of American soil because they saw with their own eyes how precious this nation is.  I thank God for every one of those people; I certainly don't consider them in any way inferior to folks who happened to be born here.

So I'm a proud, loyal American who simultaneously has deep roots in England (my other grandparent was Swedish, BTW).  I'm proud of being American citizen, but I'm proud of being English also.  And I'm proudest of all of the historic alliance between England and the USA that has survived two terrible world wars and is now being tested yet again.  I deeply value the profound historic relationship between Australia, England, and the United States, and express my gratitude for that relationship to Brits and Australians as often as I can.  Some Europeans and others criticize England as being "America's lackey"; they are not.  They are our friends who have a courageous history of standing up for what is right, and the United States needs their loyal friendship desperately today.

I believe that every single people-group on earth have SOME reason to be proud of their heritage.  If you back far enough in history, every culture showed greatness.  Be proud of where you're from, be proud of what you've got, and strive to live up to the best of humanity.
Mike

[oscar]

FWIW, I'm half polski, half pommy, and pure aussie.

One thing I don't understand about the US is, for a country with roots from a cricket playing nation, why you guys don't play cricket?

I know there's cricket clubs and plenty of interest especially from the expats' in the US, it's just that with the sheer population in the US, you'd expect there'd be enough overflow talent of those missing out on pro-baseball careers to try their hand at cricket.  Same goes for gridiron players playing rugby league and rugby union.  Yes there's been US union and league teams and I understand it's taken a lot to get those together.  Has there been a US cricket team at all?  The Candadians were in the last world cup.

Look at soccer in the US.  Whilst everbody plays it as a kid, US soccer has come a long way in the last what - 60 years or so.  The US should by now be fielding a competitive cricket team. 

Michaeld - something you said before - 55 chevy nomad.  I'm not overly confident on naming 50's and later US cars except I love the style in this era.  The nomad isn't everybody's cup-of-tea or so I found out when I showed the following pics to a friend, but I love it.  Take a look here for a resto of a 56 nomad http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/56nomad-01.html


Lastly, James - What are you doing?? I don't know what it is but you have a habit of starting threads that lead us astray ie "what's this button for" Just kidding. 
Your last statement I found interesting.  My 350 is base. No electric windows, sunroof, rear demister, power antenna, mb tex, - gee what else.  Less things to go wrong.  I agree with WGB.  It has still got that quality ride that puts a smile on your dial. The car's insured worth is $3.5k, I have reciepts for at least $5k but there's been a whole lot more over the last 3 yrs.  I don't regularly keep reciepts because I'm not selling.  I don't care whether a car has service history.  A stamped service book means nothing unless I recognise the workshop.  It's paraphenalia for collectors.  I'd rather trust my own pre-purchase inspection and evaluate the state of affairs. 

I still want a 6.9.  It's got that extra something.  Even though one in my price range is going to cost a bundle with every sub-system needing attention.  Considering that, it's comforting at times to deal with the not so well appointed varieties.  A fully optioned 280 and/or 450 se/sel has much more complexity than my 350.  I'd argue that for creature comforts, there's no difference between the sel versions of a 280, 450 and a 6.9.  The motors make a big difference and I mean, a big difference.

[adamb]

I didn't mean to come across as attacking you in any way.  I sincerely apologize if I made you feel that I was singling you out for criticism.  I was trying to use your question as a foil to address the above point, and I was trying to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.  I wasn't intending to be nasty or rude. 

Mike, I was being tongue-in-cheek as well. There is absolutely no need to apologise for anything - I strongly feel (in a really dictatorial and totally non-negotiable way) that the internet is a place where people should express their opinions freely. 

[michaeld]

Mike, I was being tongue-in-cheek as well. There is absolutely no need to apologise for anything - I strongly feel (in a really dictatorial and totally non-negotiable way) that the internet is a place where people should express their opinions freely.

Adamb,
Oh, man!!! Now I get to retract one apology just in time to issue another: I'm sorry I misunderstood your post (and glad you were being tongue-in-cheek).  I feel better whenever I know I haven't just enraged someone...
And I wholeheartedly agree over your view: bad ideas should be defeated (with arguments, and not slogans), but all ideas should be allowed a fair hearing.

Oscar,
You know what, I have no idea why we don't play cricket.  It looks like a lot of fun (like baseball on the ground!).  A number of years back I went to an "Australian rules football" game at Portland Memorial Colosseum.  It was part soccer, part rugby, and all fun!  In American football, with all the equipment, you always wonder if the last tackle hurt; when the players aren't wearing any padding, it's a LOT easier to tell!  Maybe we just have so many of our own games, we don't have time to play anyone else's?

As to soccer, I enjoy watching the World Cup.  Apart from that, I only have the patience to watch the 2nd half of a game.  Don't be too bothered by that, though: I'm the same way with regular-season American football and baseball as well.

That pic you posted of the 56 Nomad - in terms of the paint, lowering package, and wheels - looks absolutely identical to my brother's 55.  I think they are about as cool as station wagons can get (although those new Dodge Magnums are a close second).

I think every car guy should find the car or cars that he is happy with, and then do what he wants to do.  Whatever the make or model (though I have to admit that even I would be raising my eyebrows if someone told me they were restoring a '75 Ford Pinto).  There's a limit to everything, I guess.

I don't know what my 450SEL is worth to someone else, but I know what it's worth to me.  There are restoration issues I definitely will do, some I want to do in time, and some I'm simply not willing to spend either the money or time doing.  In a way, the nice thing about owning a "non-collectible" car is that you don't have to look at the ceiling at night worrying over whether you are adding or losing value.

The other nice thing I can say about my 450SEL is that it was an excellent choice of entry into classic German cars.  It didn't cost me much, and it's given me a chance to learn and to meet some GENUINELY great people from all over the world.  The "international" angle (I'd be talking with VERY few "Brits by way of Russia" or "Australian Pommy/Poles" if I had an old Ford) has been one of the most wonderful discoveries about these cars.  While I have appreciated the German engineering, and even marveled over the old world craftsmanship, the thing I have enjoyed the most has been learning from, and even debating with, the likes of all of you blokes.  If I lost my German car tomorrow, that would be the thing I'd miss the most.
Mike

[James R]

Ah cricket. Best and most popular game in the world. Nothing like it.

Rugby = thugs' game played by gentlemen
Soccer (aka football) = gentlemens' game played by thugs
Cricket = divine

Apologies for the non-Merc post. Just thought a little levity would take us away from all the mutual apologising. Did someone mention that America has its own sports ? Mmm. Interesting. (I'm kidding !!)

[michaeld]

Apologies for the non-Merc post. Just thought a little levity would take us away from all the mutual apologising.

James,
It's most unfortunate if any of my previous apologies caused any feelings of unsettledness, because that of course requires another yet another apology!  So I'm very, very sorry.  Okay, THAT one was definitely tongue-in-cheek, which I hereby declare to prevent any possible misunderstandings!

That bit about thugs vs. gentlemen was quite amusing even to an American.

I would let sociologists and anthropologists have their say in the matter - before deciding that most of what they "conclude" is full of bull-puckey, and then postulate that a lot of the reason that the USA doesn't follow much of the rest of the world in sports-tastes is because we have spent most of our existence separated by two oceans.  And, I believe, soccer wasn't even that big in Europe in the 18th century by which time most of the cultural distinctives (and some might say 'peculiarities') of the United States were formulated.  I dare say that at some point not-being-Europe became a source of smug-pride for Americana, and in some ways it's been good for us, and in other ways it's hurt us.

And now, getting back to the subject of the restoration of 450SELs and other w116s (I'll at least make some minor attempt to have at least part of one post hit the thread topic), I think that American cultural distinctiveness might have a major hand to play in the w116 valuation game as well.

Why?  Because during the mid 1970s - when the w116s appeared - the US federal government (and states such as California) began to require stringent emissions standards that significantly altered the automotive landscape.  In order to be sold in the United States, cars had to meet smog requirements that forced automakers to significantly modify their engines and exhaust systems.  I wouldn't be surprised if ALL the innovative spirit of the automakers was consumed by this directive.  And the result DECREASED engine performance from the previous years.  And then also (because they weren't through meddling yet) the government began to mandate the 5 mph bumpers.

The result of these government requirements on the "classic appeal" and value of 70s cars was catastrophic.  It was as though the car market vanished off the map after 1973.

Now, there are quite a few of you out there in w116.org land who might say, "That doesn't affect me, because my European model doesn't have all that smog crap or those ugly bumpers."  You might be right.  But I wonder if you might be wrong.

They say when the United States sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold.  Now how much truth there is to that proverb I shall leave to all of you.  But, to the extent that the United States was THE dominant power in cars throughout the aforementioned 1970s (and the 80s as well), I think it at least applies in the area of cars.

In other words, cars that were "tainted" by the "scandal" of the 1970s' smog and bumper requirements - and therefore lost "collectibility" status in the USA - lost it in the rest of the world as well.  And that even though cars bound for other markets did not possess the "insulting" features.

I might be wrong about European-, Asian-, African-, and Latin American-market w116s.  But I know I'm right about why the w116s are not deemed collectible classics in the United States.  1974-80 cars were kind of like politics following the Vietnam/Watergate period: they just got forgotten and dismissed.

Now, fortunately for me, I LOVE 1970s cars.  I love the big, heavy bodies, the huge V8s, and the torque they produced.  As a ten year old kid, one of my more powerful childhood memories was going to dealership after dealership shopping for a brand new station wagon.  And we finally drove off in a 1976 Mercury Montego.  Subsequently, we drove that car more than halfway across the country (to Iowa) four or five times.  I have powerful memories in mid-70s cars, and the fact that collectors aren't bidding up the price for them doesn't bother me one little bit!

Now, you might claim that w116s caught on in the USA every bit as much as any other MBz.  Or you might argue that w116s have as much "classic" appeal and $-value as previous chassis from pre-1974.  But that's what I think is going on.

And so, the question, "Should one spend a wagon-load of money to restore a w116?"  I would say, "Sure.  Just don't expect to get it back if you sell it."  And whether someone is asking me about a 6.9 or a 450SEL, my answer would be the same.  Will the 6.9 sell for more than a 450SEL?  Without a doubt, conditions of the vehicle being equal.  But will one pay more for that 6.9 in the first place, and then face (at very least slightly) higher costs in parts and repairs?  Also without a doubt.  In the USA, most of the non-German mechanics who WILL work on a 450SEL won't mess with a 6.9, pushing the price of professional repair up fairly dramatically (I know this because, when I've told several mechanics I had a 450SEL, they immediately told me that they don't work on them until I assured them it's NOT the model with the hydropneumatic stuff).

So you see how I integrated discussion of the casting aside of soccer by America with the notion of w116 restoration?  I may not be that smart, but at least I'm plenty imaginative!

So hats off to John and Vad El for pursuing their respective full-fledged 450SEL restoration projects.  That will surely help the 450SEL breed continue for another score-plus of years.  Keep taking pics, guys.  I'm not sure about everyone else, but I find the "ugly pics" to be even more fun to look at than the "all-finished-and-beautiful pics."  So show us some "Men At Work"-type pics!
Mike

[Andreas]

Yes I agree with the comment of: "them ugly pics" Them ugly pics reminds you that it was all worth it! It also lets us other fellas know how insane a task we may be taking on, and how to possibly avoid it. Now I think I will breath deeply,  take a stiff drink of "Stoh" ( that would be Austian rum ..... good stuff at 80 proof ) and start working on my cars .

Andreas

[James R]

Hilarious post, Mike. I now feel that I am the only one in here who hasn't apologised for something and for that (yup, you guessed it) I am truly sorry.

Right. America was the dominant force in the auto industry in 70's and 80's ? Mmm.

No. Stop it.

I must post some pics of my 450 having its sills replaced. Or at least I would do if I knew how. I must agree that its great to see pics of other cars having work done because one can then see what you're up against if your own car has a similar problem.

Happy weekend everyone.

James

[mirafioriman]

Hi James,

I am restoring a 6.9 and a 6.3. I host my photos on a site called dropshots.com It is free to sign up, and you can load up to 500 pictures. It would be great to see your car. I am also in the UK but up North. You can see my car photos on:

www.dropshots.com/mirafioriman

www.dropshots.com/300SELman

www.dropshots.com/argentaman

PS I also like old Fiats!

[adamb]

Hi Mirafioriman (now that's a hard name to spell!)

I was aware of your ambitious 6.9 project (which I am sure you'll finish) but didn't know that you had a 6.3 on the go as well. I am most jealous of your garage. I would love to have a place like that but it's hard to find something affordable where I live. Where abouts are you up north?

Adam

[mirafioriman]

Yes Mirafioriman as in Fiat Mirafiori. I currently own 4 of them. I live in Carlisle in Cumbria. Had the 6.3 for quite some time, but restoring my first Mirafiori and other stuff got in the way. Now I have my workshop organised (see the latest pictures on the dropshots site) I am intending to get cracked on during the Winter.