Restoration Meta Question

[JasonP]

Thanks for all the input. I think I'll just keep moving forward - if anything, I will gain skills and knowledge which I can use on another car.

I think my story is a common one - I bought it because it was the cheapest for the value ($1,000). And now I am hooked. I really like it.

I can afford to trickle out money for repairs/restorations, but not a new car. One of the ironies of poverty is, you can afford to trickle away money, but you cannot afford large purchases, so you are forced to make bad economic choices in the long run. Over time, the car will cost me a lot more than if I had just bought a reliable modern car.

I don't even have a garage, just an open shed to work in. As far as the rust goes, unless I can take the body off and grind/blast the whole thing, which is my dream, I doubt I will get all the rust. It does have rust around the sunroof, trunk, floorpan, jack holes. And a huge area of rusted smashed rear left fender, which I wish I could just bang out, grind, and touch-up.

I am surprised these old diesel W116's do not have a higher resale value. I think they are so unique, and such high quality.

I have a parts car to keep me going (same year/model), but the shame of it is, the parts car has a more solid, rust-free body than my daily driver! But the parts car needs a new engine/tranny, and is classified as "salvage," and I don't know the history of it. It looks boxy compared to my daily driver, and the trunk doesn't fit (it rubs at the corners when I open it).

[jbrasile]

Jason,

I understand your dilemma... in the case of a 300SD, since nice cars do show up for sale from time to time it might make more sense to save the money of the restoration and just wait for the "right"car. I know it's hard, most of us just don't have the discipline to do it, but in the long run you will probably come out ahead. Unless you have a "sentimental" attachment to the car like I have with my 78 and 80 450, you need to be practical and think about it with a level head.

It is one thing to do a full restoration on a 6.9 or a 6.3 like we are doing, when you have the funds available and the car in the end will probably be worth what you spent on it. Unfortunately Diesels will probably never be collectible enough to justify the investment, besides doing a proper job is no easy task.

In Australia, the UK and here in Brazil, really nice 116's are not easy to find so we end up spending the time and money making our cars as nice as we can because we just don't have the availability of inventory you have in the US. In the past year there were probably 10 or so REALLY good cars for sale on e-bay, Hemmings, etc... just look at the red 450SEL Casey purchased in California, a stunning car for a fair price. 

I know talk is cheap.... so I'll just keep quiet now....

Tks

Joe

[Tony66_au]

I am always concerned about rust on non-removable panels such as sill, floorpan (extensive), firewall and around windscreens.
Tim

Tim I have to comment here mate and say that my experience has been that sills are easy and can be fabbed by a good metal shop with a roller or bending break and quite cheaply out of 1.2 or 1.6 mm sheet steel and that a continuous weld after plug welding the replacement sill where it was originally spot welded will actually add structural strength and torsional ridgidity because you are basically seam welding structure, a common racecar improvement and that spot welds are often not full thickness which means they are flawed from factory.

I have also replaced entire floorpans from scuttle to boot pan and sill to sill which once again makes the car better structurally than it would have been from the factory.

I learned these skills building Mini's and later transferred my skills to Old Fords, Chrysler's and many many rusty Jag's.

As Mark pointed out the structure of a unibody car is hidden in the inner sills and pillars and is to stop movement or flex on a horizontal axis and is usually in the shape of a Capitol B on its back comprising of the inner and outer sills, A,B and C pillars connecting the sills to the door frames.

Then you have secondary rigidity in the form of the firewalls and front and rear screens framework but this has to have some give in it to absorb the impacts on suspension mounts etc.

This is why A pillars are made to move and are often braised where the roof turret is connected at the top of the A,B,C pillar and why A pillars crack when the cars are abused as these points are all stress relief points.

Replacing floor pans and outer sills and even welding patches into plenum chambers etc is infact good practice for older cars and if properly done doesnt make the car unsafe at all.

Tony

[marynguyen]

Please do not worry about that!  You will be not like this:
"I just don't want to be a fool and wake up one morning with thousands of dollars of restoration surrounded by orange powdery metal". I have met many guests as you and now they have been successful and as soon as then they have  own a car for yourself. I hope you will soon restoration your car and succeed with it. If you need any part producing in stainless steel for W116, please give me your old samples. Then I can make a copy for you. We will give you a reasonable for that. 
Please let me know your idea. I highly appreciate about this.

[JasonP]

Pondering this thread on my couch tonight, I was reminded of the use of the term "beautiful."

When my martial arts instructor was telling me about a street fight he had had, and how he did so well, he said "It was beautiful!"

When I was in college, and a fellow student saw a correct waveform on the oscilloscope during lab, he said "That's beautiful!"

When I walk outside and see my 1979 Mercedes-Benz 300SD, I think to myself "That's beautiful!"

I know I'm a corny, sentimental bastard, but right now, it just seems "beautiful." 


jbrasile - thanks for the wise words. Part of the reason I am pursuing this is for the right car, if it ever appears. The skills and knowledge I am gaining can only help in the future. Of course I am sentimental about my current daily driver - she was my first!  But we may grow apart. I must accept this. She's a bit too old for me. Too many miles. She can teach me more than I can teach her. I think she will understand when I find someone younger, more rust-free than she is. Someone with fresh, flexible tubing and clear, clean fluids that are not leaking. I think she will be happy for me when I caress her tight waxed paint and see the sun reflected on her shiny chrome.

Uh, what were we talking about? Cars?

[adamb]

Hey JasonP,

Everything I learned about old Mercedes came from needing to fix them. Be that MIG welding, mechanical or electrical repairs. Having a rusty old Merc is a good place to start. Don't bother with restoration though; when budgets increase and if you are still interested, buy a good car and make it perfect.

Cheers,
Adam

[Kjhall65]

My heart tells me to rebuild my 280SE but my head is telling me that it is not worth it and the car is more valuable as a parts car.  Joe is dead right.

My head will win but not until the heart has caught up with the head.
Ken

[Tony66_au]

We are lucky in OZ because a nice 450 can be had for 4 or 5k and even slightly nice for sub $1000.

My problem is I worry that the nice car i just bought for parts may be the last affordable 116 I find and it haunts me so im very cautious when raiding cars for bits and try to leave the damage as reversible.

[Kjhall65]

We are lucky in OZ because a nice 450 can be had for 4 or 5k and even slightly nice for sub $1000.

My problem is I worry that the nice car i just bought for parts may be the last affordable 116 I find and it haunts me so im very cautious when raiding cars for bits and try to leave the damage as reversible.

I'm in the same boat tony, that's why I went looking for a tail light today rather than raid the 280.  I don't have to decide anytime soon so it can just sit there.  I always look to see what's around and keep my options open.

[oversize]

If you're wondering about what can be repaired then have a look at this....  It might just be someone we all know!   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OGlV6WcquU

[jbrasile]

A few current e-bay offers:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1980-MERCEDES-BENZ-300-SD-W116-TURBO-DIESEL-87-575-Original-Miles-/221170375326?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item337ec81a9e#ht_8082wt_1165

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1980-Mercedes-Benz-300SD-TURBODIESEL-GRANDDADS-ORIGINAL-VINTAGE-DRIVER-/261150731626?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3ccdcbed6a#ht_2630wt_1165

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1979-Mercedes-Benz-280SE-/251210463303?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a7d4f7847#ht_856wt_1165

Tks,

Joe

[Kjhall65]

I had a good poke around the 280SE today to see how extensive the rust is.  The verdict is the drivers door is rusted out totally, both sills need attention and the firewall on both sides close to the bonnet hinges.

The firewall stuff is what concerns me a bit. It's  hard to get in there to see how bad it really is.

Again, the Delmar we all face.  Which way to jump - parts or resto.....

[ZCarFan]

Sometimes (always?) a project like car restoration is more about you than the car.  A really bad car is a challenge, and if you feel you need a challenge more than you need to justify the monetary value, then have at it.  Just be honest with yourself up front as to what you are really doing. 

Judging your current situation, my advice would be to maintain and preserve the car you have, and as your economic condition improves, make sure you prepare yourself for taking advantage of any deals that might come up in the future before you commit to restoring the current car.  You never know, you could put money together to restore your current car and then shortly before starting find a better example that would be a better and cheaper alternative. 

[powerglide]

Great question, great posts! I've done it both ways, and the old, sage advice is best, namely, that you go out and pay top dollar for the best example you can fnd of the car of your dreams, and carefully work through its systems, rebuilding and reconditionning as you go to get it back to factory perfect.  Remember, an orginal car in perfect condition will almost always be worth more than the best resto (eg, Pebble Beach concours standard) you can do.  You can fix a lot of rust without too much drama if you know what you are doing, but the big question is whether it is worth it.  Hard to see that with a W116, except possibly in the case of a 6.9 or a manual shift 350SE.  It will be worth it with, say, a fastback Mustang that you can rebuild to GT specs and get significant money for (>50k), but even really good 6.9s don't pull much over 20k, and pretty good ones have changed hands for 12-15k.  A 300D? - hmm, you'd need to be a well-padded romantic, methinks.