Author Topic: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?  (Read 1586 times)

oversize

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #15 on: 28 November 2018, 01:43 PM »
You get what you pay for in today’s society...
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Squiggle Dog

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #16 on: 28 November 2018, 02:22 PM »
You get what you pay for in today’s society...

...and sometimes you don't even get that.
Stop paying for animal cruelty and slaughter. Go vegan! https://challenge22.com/

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ptashek

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #17 on: 28 November 2018, 02:30 PM »
The price gouging is a tactic they're utilizing to thwart any/all interests in the older models.

There was actually an interview with the current head of the Classic division, Christian Boucke, in the February issue of the Mercedes Classic Magazine.
They are merging the Classic Centre and Mercedes Museum into one venture, relocating the former closer to the museum itself. The aim for the entire division is to "make it more accessible and more profitable". I'm guessing the "more profitable" bit is what we're seeing in terms of pricing...

I don't think they've lost interest in classics altogether, since it's a massively profitable legacy for them. But they can't support every model ever made, so they're probably concentrating on the obvious collectors choices. The W116 isn't one of them, as we all know. Even the W124, which has a much bigger cult following, is starting to feel the squeeze. Can't win with bean counters these days.
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
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oversize

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #18 on: 28 November 2018, 03:03 PM »
True they can’t keep all parts for every car. However there are parts that commonly fail yet they are nla. I used to love the fact MB seemed able to supply almost anything (as long as you had deep pockets) and it set them apart from all others. However it’s possible their success has been at the expense of that accolade, since they’ve introduced so many models to support.

While it may be true the 116 isn’t supported well, that’s true of all others. The 6.9 is steadily gaining momentum and many parts for it are interchangeable with the other models in the 116 range. Popularity is only as good as the hero car in the range and I can’t see a 124 24v or 140 v12 ever being as popular as a M100 powered vehicle. Have some faith and encourage people to buy a 116 and hopefully MB will take notice.

If MB don’t get their act together soon I feel others will take matters into their own hands on a larger scale and provide aftermarket quality parts at a reasonable price.
1979 6.9 #5541 (Red Bull)
1978 6.9 #4248 (Skye)
1979 6.9 #3686 (Moby Dick)
1978 6.9 #1776 (Dora)
1977 450SEL #7010 white -P
1975 450SEL #8414 gold -P

nathan

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #19 on: 29 November 2018, 05:50 AM »

UTn, I would be expecting a call from MBs lawyers about copyright of their parts.  suggesting a company directly copy one firms property?! I wouldn't be making that one public knowledge!

as for the free data cards, MB is a private company and they dont 'owe' any of us anything for free.  the fee of 150 does seem steep, just spend the money on 116 parts instead!

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ptashek

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #20 on: 29 November 2018, 02:42 PM »
MB is a private company and they dont 'owe' any of us anything for free.

They don't "owe us" anything for free, but it's that sort of thinking that is biting "traditional brands" in the proverbial...

Say, there's 1 million classics that don't have an electronic data card in EPC (if memory serves, anything prior to the W124 doesn't), and the actual cost of issuing a printed copy is 100EUR, the rest is MB markup. I see that 100mln is an investment in the brand image and loyalty, and therefore potential future sales, not just dead-weight cost. MB were far better at this decades ago, when it wasn't all about profit. And if they had embraced the modern age in full, they would have digitised their archives a long time ago not just in the last few years (via https://mercedes-benz-publicarchive.com), and provided the non-public content as a self-service offering, potentially making more money this way.

But I guess they can't do that as they need the cash to cover recalling 700k cars through their own fault (diesel gate).
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE (history, resto)
1977 "Milan Brown" W116 350SE (parted out)

floyd111

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #21 on: 29 November 2018, 04:45 PM »
I don't think MB was ever anything else then a profit driven company. That's not changed. Competition has changed a lot, though, comparing the 20's, 50's and even the 70's. What's changed -maybe because of that competition- is the version of profit-driven policy, a thing that morphed from one shape into another. Keeping all the parts for all their classics is entirely possible on a logistical level. Like a public bus company, some routes will make money, others will not. One pays for the other, in order to achieve the largest possible network of routes. Together they are still in the black, and for MB that meant that  a unique parts-service was possible, something only MB has ever been able to offer.
These days, much like the privatized an gov postal services, railway services and bus services, all non-profitable pathways are being deleted and that sounds the end of what was once an excellent principle. I don't think MB will be chasing anyone producing copied parts for any of their 20+ year cars anymore. With their years in China, they have learnt to accept and adapt, no doubt.

oversize

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #22 on: 29 November 2018, 06:53 PM »
Anyone considering such an endeavour would be well advised to seek legal advice first.

MB no longer sell many older parts, so I fail to see how they could retain copyright. I’m sure there’d be time limits on such things which have probably long since expired.

It seems to me MB have no aspirations to remanufacture old parts since the tooling was destroyed (or so I’ve heard). Many parts were outsourced and thus MB didn’t have control over the tooling. And I doubt they included indefinite tooling retention in the manufacturing contracts since they never considered enthusiasts who might keep their cars for 40+ years. Therefore if no engineering specifications exist, even MB would have to COPY their own product!
1979 6.9 #5541 (Red Bull)
1978 6.9 #4248 (Skye)
1979 6.9 #3686 (Moby Dick)
1978 6.9 #1776 (Dora)
1977 450SEL #7010 white -P
1975 450SEL #8414 gold -P

UTn_boy

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #23 on: 30 November 2018, 12:05 AM »

UTn, I would be expecting a call from MBs lawyers about copyright of their parts.  suggesting a company directly copy one firms property?! I wouldn't be making that one public knowledge!

as for the free data cards, MB is a private company and they dont 'owe' any of us anything for free.  the fee of 150 does seem steep, just spend the money on 116 parts instead!

Don't get me wrong....I don't expect anything for free, and I don't feel the MB owed anyone anything in this regard.  The fact of the matter is that when one legally owns a car, that person owns more rights to the data card for that car than MB does.  A $10-$20 service fee for a data card I could live with, but given that all available data cards have now been digitized and saved in massive hard drives, all that has to be done is to send three emails....one from the dealership or classic center, one back to the dealership or classic center, and the last one to the owner of the car.  The time involved is minuscule, and does not merit a $150 fee.  They're simply being greedy.  As Stan said, it's been a profit making company for many many years, and in their eyes the more they can rake in the better. 

Regarding the copyright mess......I did nothing that URO doesn't already do.  I've no documentation of the help I sent them, and they certainly don't.  So nothing could be proven.  I'm not worried, especially since the statute of limitations has expired.  I certainly wouldn't do it again, though. 
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URO Parts Support

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #24 on: 30 November 2018, 10:51 AM »
Hi UTn_boy, we sent you a PM and an email yesterday regarding those parts you provided several years ago.  Clearly we dropped the ball on getting back to you on this, please respond via email or PM when you get a chance so we can determine the status of your parts and get you taken care of.

Please accept our apologies, and thank you for your patience.

URO Parts Support

URO Parts Support

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #25 on: 30 November 2018, 11:00 AM »
Regarding the copyright mess......I did nothing that URO doesn't already do.

No need for anyone to worry, there's nothing illegal about making aftermarket parts, as long as the trademarked OE brand logos aren't replicated. 

It would certainly be nice if the original logos could be used when making aftermarket parts for high-end classic car restorations, but it simply can't be done legally.  The best we can do on those items (such as glass or plastic light lenses) is a different logo that has a similar shape and isn't noticeable from a distance, but is completely different when viewed up close.

floyd111

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #26 on: 01 December 2018, 02:27 PM »
Hi UTn_boy, we sent you a PM and an email yesterday regarding those parts you provided several years ago.  Clearly we dropped the ball on getting back to you on this, please respond via email or PM when you get a chance so we can determine the status of your parts and get you taken care of.

Please accept our apologies, and thank you for your patience.

URO Parts Support

Is anyone here taking the Mickey, or is that indeed a URO post?

rumb

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #27 on: 02 December 2018, 06:09 AM »
It's legit, I reached out to a contact of mine.
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rumb

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #28 on: 02 December 2018, 06:19 AM »

  The fact of the matter is that when one legally owns a car, that person owns more rights to the data card for that car than MB does.

From what I have read auto manufactures own the software in your car and it's illegal to modify it, though I have heard of legislation to change that.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/04/automakers-say-you-dont-really-own-your-car

more recent news
https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-wins-dmca-exemption-petitions-tinkering-echos-and-repairing-appliances-new

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ptashek

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Re: No more free data cards from the Classic Centre?
« Reply #29 on: 02 December 2018, 07:42 AM »
From what I have read auto manufactures own the software in your car and it's illegal to modify it

It's been like that in the software world since pretty much forever.
You never buy the software, just a license to use it, and the T&Cs will always have large blocks of what you can and cannot do with it. And the one thing that's always there, in case of proprietary software, is prohibition of any sort of modifications, disassembly etc. And truly, other than lawyers, nobody really ever cared about any of it. There's plenty of security researchers (friendly, and hostile) who slice and dice modern car software as they please. Often, with shocking results: https://www.wired.com/story/car-hack-shut-down-safety-features/
1993 "Pearl Blue" W124 280TE
1979 "Icon Gold" W116 450SE (history, resto)
1977 "Milan Brown" W116 350SE (parted out)