Forums - 'clubs of the future' - do we want to have a 'voice'?

[craigb]

It didn't start out that way, but it turned into a long post. To summarise so you can work out if worth reading on:

• I suspect that there are a lot of people on here that arn't members of formal clubs and we could use their 'voice' when lobbying governtment
• how much we spend
  did you know the luxury car tax in Oz applies to importing secondhand vehicles

The trigger for this email is the upcoming Australian Historic Motoring Federation AGM in Brisbane on 20/9/2008. So while this is a truly international forum, there is a fair swag of Aussies on here, and the issues are the same for the others too and their comments useful.

AHMF represents something like 900 clubs with 100,000 or so members across Australia and I happen to be the current Secretary. I see our purpose is predominantly to be a voice and to lobby after consultation so we know what 'the enthusiasts' want and to have the loudest 'collective voice'.

Last year we did a national survey that demonstrated the members contribute at least $650 million per annum to the Australian economy and are sitting on $3.7 billion of vehicles. Very similar surveys in the UK and EU produced results of  Aus$ equivalents of 6.7 and 27 billion contribution, which is not so different on a per capita basis. Also I think they did a better job of encapsulating the 'worth' from surveying suppliers etc. also and being more inclusive of all the costs, such as building a new garage that you wouldn't have built if you didn't have collector vehicles. They did point out though the 'underestimate' because not everyone is in a club.  So you probably see where I am going!

As an example of the sort of lobbying AHMF can do, a hot topic at this years AGM is the luxury car tax. We will have an expert explain it, but my understanding is that this applies to all vehicles, new or secondhand. So as the 6.9 rightly follows up the performance car price explosion of Monaros and Falcons, how do you feel about paying that tax on an import? I received the following letter that explains the issues a little more:

Further to our discussion on the luxury car tax and old cars, I would be grateful if the matter could be taken further first with the council and then with the federal body representing the old car movement. It seems that the intent of the legislation was to discourage people from buying expensive new motor cars but a vehicle which is over 30 years of age and exempt import duty can hardly be a threat to the new car industry here in Australia. The only group that is effected is the hobbyist that enjoys old cars,  the current legislation that is causing valuable old cars to be exported and very few to come into the country, from my experience. If the matter could be taken up with the federal government asking that vehicles over the age of thirty years imported into the country be treated as not only import duty free but free of luxury car tax this would enable the balance to be reinstated for the old car movement with a normal ebb and flow of vehicles. It is hard for me to understand how a vehicle with no doors no windows no electric niceties whatso ever could be classed as a luxury car. I have been asked to take this up with you on behalf of a number of club members of the several clubs I am in.

So, I am guessing you wont be keen on this tax and I know the message is pretty strong from our membership, so we will start lobbying against it and in flexing our, in political terms, pretty pathetic muscles (0.5% population AHMF membership), I don't know how much notice they will take.

Another issue of concern is the average age of its members. I don't have the data here but it has aged significantly and as a collective voice we only stand to diminish the way we are going. I am a member of a few clubs, but the reality is that I find more like-minded individuals on these forums and I really do see them and their informality becoming the clubs of the future. As we have demonstrated, we still get together for the face-to-face contact, just not within a rigid structure like traditional clubs.

But we all still vote don't we? But will our collective voice be heard when it is needed? Any thoughts how to achieve this?

I haven't done much thinking on this and will raise it as an item on the Agenda for discussion. Preliminary thoughts are how to include all the voice of the enthusiasts and that politicians wont listen unless they really believe these people exist and therefore are voters. Therefore all this 'electronic' representation of people might be an issue? I don't know if it helps, but I thought that maybe the AHMF could have a voluntary register of forums (like we have a list and links to our clubs on the website), and somehow we could identify how many members there are and from which country. I know anonymity is important to some on the forums, but if we just made it compulsory to put which country, or at least strongly encourage to put country so that if most have it, we can just disregard the 'voice' of those members. I am pretty certain most don't mind putting where they are from generally and when not there often just because they skipped it. I know we could just do a poll on a topic and get an answer, but the advantage of knowing how many are represented by the forum is that not everyone will do the poll for whatever reason, but enough will do it to get a 'sample' that can then be projected to estimate how many real 'voters' think that way.

This is getting more complicated as I write and then of course there is the issue that most of us are on a number of forums. How do you record duplication? Maybe we just suggest you only vote once on one of your forums and use the honour system, and that could apply for country too?  Anyway, bottom line is that I think we could greatly expand our 'voice' if instead of surveying just the AHMF clubs, we also surveyed all the internet forums – I'm just looking for help on how to achieve that.

I know in our busy lives the beauty of these forums is the flexibility, no expectations etc. and maybe you can't be bothered with all this crap I am on about, but just a parting thought that there has been a lot of pressure in UK and EU government to have all old vehicles banned from the roads. In political terms, there is this increasing 'green' attitude amongst ever increasing numbers of voters. Politicians need to be seen to be doing something, real or perceived I don't think it bothers them that much. So how many votes do they gain and how many votes do they lose by such an action? The 'facts' (from extensive UK FBHVC surveys on usage) are, that they can prove to the wider voting public, that to argue this on environmental grounds would be a complete nonsense and as a result it has gone away....... for now!

On issues such as this luxury car tax, I reckon it is best to be active, leave the politicians thinking, "there might not be that many of them but hell they can stir up a lot of shit when they want to!"  Tax on expensive cars, new or old, is possibly not the best topic to win the hearts minds of the general public, but I hope you get the point.

Anyway, there are greater minds than mine out there that can probably help with this. Any feedback before the 20/9/08 meeting will be particularly useful.

[WGB]

In terms of tax - Luxury Car Tax and State Stamp duty are enormous costs when purchasing expensive cars and there is a certain degree of opportunism on behalf of the state and federal governments.

Forums of all kind have no voice except among their own "True believers" but real commitment is required to join a club, be active and mix with people who can make decisions. Often these political decisions are quite arbitrary and a small amount of input at the right time can have major impact.

My decision to own several cars with large V8 engines puts me in a minority but I am a member of M-B Car Club of WA and although most members do not share my particular interest in getting my hands dirty I am aware that the Club has some input into decisions of State.

Equally my other sport is Pistol Shooting which has been under intense political pressure since the 1950's and the only reasons for it's survival are that it is an Olympic Sport and we have state and national bodies who consistently lobby for our interests.

Large old cars may soon need that same amount of enthusiasm and commitment.

Bill

[SELfor50]

In terms of tax - Luxury Car Tax and State Stamp duty are enormous costs when purchasing expensive cars and there is a certain degree of opportunism on behalf of the state and federal governments.

Forums of all kind have no voice except among their own "True believers" but real commitment is required to join a club, be active and mix with people who can make decisions. Often these political decisions are quite arbitrary and a small amount of input at the right time can have major impact.

My decision to own several cars with large V8 engines puts me in a minority but I am a member of M-B Car Club of WA and although most members do not share my particular interest in getting my hands dirty I am aware that the Club has some input into decisions of State.

Equally my other sport is Pistol Shooting which has been under intense political pressure since the 1950's and the only reasons for it's survival are that it is an Olympic Sport and we have state and national bodies who consistently lobby for our interests.

Large old cars may soon need that same amount of enthusiasm and commitment.

Bill

I can't really comment on the luxury tax (yet) never spent more than $1500 on a car.. 

However, if it's purely statistics / numbers you're trying to gather from the forums.. then I think it's as good a source as any.

On a side note, what sort of Pistol Shooting do you do Bill??
One of my mates just went to the world titles over in Finland... won a few medals. 

[WGB]

I have a 10 metre air pistol, .22 standard and rapidfire and a .357 magnum revolver that I use for centre-fire, service pistol and falling plates.

Not too many medals but I do have a few.

Just part of the colour of life and letting off 60 rounds on a cool clear Perth morning is very satisfying as well as a wonderful exercise in self discipline.

Bill

[oscar]

Hi Craig, I assumed LCT was purely for new cars over aprrox $60,000.  Do I read the above correctly that it would apply to any car over that value and particularly imported collectible vehicles of any age??

I can honestly say I don't believe I'll ever be able to afford to import a car of any age into the country worth that much.  Even a private or through a dealer sale locally, I can't imagine ever spending enough to trigger the LCT on the sale.  I wonder if I'm part of a minority or a majority  

Having said that, I deplore the LCT.  If it's there to protect the locally built new car market, it's not working.   There is a large swing IMO to imported vehicles whose value is under that LCT threshold anyway.  The LCT is pure revenue raising with no clear aim and should be scrapped, period.

Of similar importance is the registration charge for owners of multiple older cars.  Sure every State has some kind of classic or vintage car discount for vehicles over 25 or 30 years of age but with that comes restrictions for when and where they can be driven.  The last of our w116's wont fit that cheaper registration category for nearly another two years so if you want to drive it, you have to pay the high rego costs.  I would like to see registration costs be more of a user pays system whereby the more you drive, the more you pay.  It wont happen but it would be fairer.

But we all still vote don't we? But will our collective voice be heard when it is needed? Any thoughts how to achieve this?

Electronically, I don't know.  You have to hold ground, do what the farmers did with their tractors, do what the truck drivers did with their prime movers - take to the streets around Parliament House.  A convoy of classics blocking the roads.

[WGB]

Having paid LCT twice in the past 18 months I am pleased it was at the "Lesser Rate" (is that an oxymoron) but as well our local caring sharing Labour Government has surreptisiously (By letter drop to the Car Dealers a few Fridays ago) increased stamp duty by assessing the total on road value of the car whereas before it was assessed on the base value of the car without accessories.

Combine this with interest rate rises, share market retreats and petrol price increases and the result has been a 50% drop in New Luxury car sales.

Having shot themselves in the (tax) collective feet they will extend the fun to Car enthusiasts and the Classic car market.

Bill

[SELfor50]

I have a 10 metre air pistol, .22 standard and rapidfire and a .357 magnum revolver that I use for centre-fire, service pistol and falling plates.

Not too many medals but I do have a few.

Just part of the colour of life and letting off 60 rounds on a cool clear Perth morning is very satisfying as well as a wonderful exercise in self discipline.

Bill

Good stuff Bill!!  My workmate shoots little bore and big bore targets.. I think he uses revolvers mainly.
I'm looking at getting involved with the club in the coming months.

I'm sure it's very satisfying on a nice day, and correct again.. good exercise in self discipline. :cool:

..sorry back to the topic.

[craigb]

Oscar, my in depth knowledge of googling 'Australian luxury car tax' lead me to the conclusion that it is only new cars in Oz, but also on any imported new or used cars (no doubt I will find out more in September). I have to say it is not going to be bothering me personally too much either, but there certainly has been an exodus of a lot of vehicles, particularly older vintage etc. and partly due to the comparitive value of our dollar and markets. Now the dollar is up and those with money one might assume would have more buying power, the tax no adds an extra incentive to no increase the interest in the local fleet, while the overseas buyer still has no impedements to buy from here.

There are points in history where Australia was a particularly wealthy place for some, and combined with our climate, it means until not that long ago we had a pretty special fleet here that the rest of the world was in awe of, particularly in that prewar period. I don't know how we stand right now, but I know in my Vintage Sports Car Club, one by one I am watching special cars go OS as people get older and the market has been so much higher over there. A very interesting Bugatti to Denmark, a Crossley and 2 Amilcars to the UK and an Albion back to its origin in Scotland. The Albion was interesting, one of 4 known in the world, 2 cylinder, 3 litre. I drove it and would have liked it at $30k, but that is a lot of loose change for me. Meanwhile a Scottish guy was surfing the web and came upon a Bay to Birdwood page and spotted the concourse Albion and the owners name Cuppleditch. He then got white pages on line and started calling until he found Don. Don didn't want to see it go so when he said to name his price, he said a 'silly figure' as he called it (rumoured by others that probably know to be $90k). The money was in his account within hours. You can hardly blame the guy though with being offered 3 times the local market value and the stories are often the same. Anyway, we can't change that but for minimal actual gain to the govt, i don't think they should be adding extra hurdles if some wealthy individuals want to preserve our history. Compare that to the attitude of the US that charges no tax on vehicle parts etc (i believe) because they think that the automotive history is an important part of the countries history. And a car that reached out to the average Joe, I believe the Peking to Paris Itala, star of the TV series was sold to an OS buyer.

But I do agree it is not a huge issue for us at the moment, I guess I am moreso making the point that we should forge some links, so we are better organised to handle anything in the future. I think the main point is that we are pretty much aligned in our general thinking as motoring enthusiasts. I don't want to put any extra time into this sort of political stuff, but it would be nice to know where the supporters are if they are needed and have some sort of estimate as to the size of the army. I think your point is a good one, that if ever we wanted to make our presence felt, if every enthusiast vehicle just happened to head into the CBD of every capital city on the same day it would be noticed..... but of course you would have to think whether that was a good idea or not.

The rego charge is an interesting one, and I know some countries have a higher charge for your licence, and then nominal charges for each vehicle. Also each state has their own enthusiast rego system eg. WA $25 a year I think (feel free to correct me anyone), 25+yo but only for 'club events", but I believe with the support of the govt., Cadillac/lasalle club have got an online set up where if you want to go for a drive you post it on their website, email goes out to all members, they have until a certain time before the run to register, then an email is automatically sent off to the registrar advising him and away you go. If you are the only one, you go for a drive by yourself. Sounds like a great way to get around the system to me. SA system I think is very restrictive on the vehicle itself and at about $120 (and rumoured to go up) you can't do too many cars and of course you really can only drive one at a time. It does give you 90 days a year though to drive anywhere at anytime you please after making the entry in an official logbook. I think Tassie are closer to the mark with 2 systems, one cheap for club runs, one more like the SA figure but it is for any 30+vehicle, regardless of modifications and that free 90days concept.  But if you have lots of cars, probably 50 or 30 days would be enough. Also SA govt want to cap the date for historic rego that I think is stupid. Why should they dream up a date when motoring history ends. Is a 1973 W116 a classic worth preserving and a 1980 model not. Just the sort of example where a pen pushing politician or public servant shouldn't be making these sort of decisions and certainly not without consulting the masses who it affects. Anyway...... off I go again! This is probably boring most of you anyway!!

Interesting point Bill, that the x % gained from LCT is not going to make up for the GST on the 50% of lost sales.

Thanks for the supporting words Cam.

[oscar]

I have had no brainwave on creating the collective online group but I did come across this article today about LCT.  The planned rise from 25% to 33% was defeated in the senate.  Anyone charged the extra after 1st july is due a refund, though I don't know how anyone could be charged 33% if it hadn't passed through the senate first.

One man blows $555m hole in budget over luxury car tax

[craigb]

Thanks Oscar. So i will find out in a couple of weeks about the import thing. I wonder if that also remains at 25% or whether it was something altogether new that was introduced. I thought in the past that vehicles over 30yo were treated differently for import taxes.