Current Performance Cars vs Classics

[oversize]

I'm wondering how well an SLS will age and what they'll be like in 30+ years?  Being that most parts are unrepairable (computers and all plastics), will parts be so insanely expensive that they're worthless?  Like the W140 V12....  If that's the case it'll be a damn shame because I'd say the bodies will outlast the supporting systems that keep them on the road.  Unlike the W116 it'll be unlikely they'll rust badly as they've eliminated many water traps and provided far better corrosion protection.  We could see many good looking cars in the future that'll fail to function as intended.  Consider all the airbags....  Taking it to an extreme how many will be converted to crate smallblock Chevs??      Will this also apply to all performance cars; not just Mercedes?

Could you then say that everything pre 1980 will be forever a Classic and post 1980 will be junk?

[ZCarFan]

Some of it depends on legislation -- I can keep any car going with fabricated parts but to do so may not be legal.  There's no reason you can't  just substitute a more common ECM for example to keep the car running, but this may run afoul of emissions standards (regardless of actual emissions).  As long as you can buy individual electronic components you can build a MegaSquirt computer.  Same with "safety" legislation.  You might be able to fab up suspension or exhaust components, but there is nothing preventing the do-gooders from insisting on OEM only parts (regardless of actual safety).

So, there's no rational reason you can't keep them going for decades into the future, but human interaction is  rarely so rational that one can plan that far ahead on such matters.  You can rely on your resourcefulness and efforts to see you through nearly any task, but only if permitted.

[oversize]

The problem is that the computers are linked (I believe), so adding an aftermarket ECU for the engine won't link to the trans or body modules (airbags and security systems for example).  And all those plastic interconnects will deteriorate, go hard and break, causing all manner of electrical problems.

And yes you're right due to emission issues it's not legal to change the ECU or add a 'piggy back' one

[ZCarFan]

True, there is the added complexity, but the basic premise is the same.  The amount of time and money required would naturally have the effect of seriously  reducing the number of potential restoration candidates though wouldn't it?  So I wouldn't say that newer stuff will just be "junk", but I certainly expect to not see much of the grassroots restoration in the home garage activities in 20 years.

Don't forget though that for all but a handful of people in the world, the W116 falls into this category already.  Take pistons for example... genuine Mercedes OM617 pistons cost as much as custom race pistons for a SB Chevy.  That's OEM mass-produced vs. custom made one at a time.  So just like today, I expect a lot of marginal cars will simply be used for parts.

[oversize]

Well I certainly hope they won't be junk in the future!  Yes I agree some W116 parts might have to be custom made in the future, at least they CAN be.  I'd doubt anyone will be able to custom-build a post 80s ECU, or many of the plastic bits featured in a 'modern car'; now or even 30 years from now.

It'd be interesting to price all the ECUs that're fitted to a W140....  And I'd wager the cost would be more than most examples would be worth

[JasonP]

Its interesting just from our perspective of time. When I was growing up (in the 70's and 80's) 1950's cars were the shit. But, the automobile is only 100 years old. So the growth and evolution of it has a very limited history, and we are now looking backward, and seeing much more than our fathers did, and even our grandfathers.

There seems to be this trend where it was all wide open to home maintenance, and everything could be figured out and fixed at home in the garage, then it became where an engine was completely under a plastic cover, all systems monitored by a mysterious computer output that could only be read by a shop.

I think we are at the cusp of the two worlds. My 1979 300SD is from the last wave of incredible engineering that one can fix at home. A decade later, we are talking specialized equipment, computer codes, and the average guy is lost.

Technology has a lifespan, and I think we can all sit back and see it, if we take the time and space to clear our minds. There comes a point when it is beyond our reach, and at that point, I believe, we have lost a part of our humanity. We become disempowered. I like my car because I can understand it, I can maintain it, I can fix it. And it is world class technology.

I doubt I could maintain a 2013 SL63 AMG at my home. And is it as robust as my 300SD? Will a lightly maintained 2013 SL63 AMG be as good in 2053 as a lightly maintained 1979 300SD in 2019?

I doubt it.

[jbrasile]

I doubt we will see many cars manufactured after 2002 still on the read after 30/40 years. Save for a few fanatics with the resources to maintain the vehicles it will probably be close to impossible to own and drive a modern car of that age. Electronics will not be repairable and cost a fortune, plastics simply don't last, especially since they all recycled anyway... Every car with an electronic key comes pre-programmed with  a set number of starts, it is still unclear to me what happens once you reach that limit, do you need to purchase a new key? a new starting module or re-program the system?

W203's suffer from chronic key module failure, in fact all MB's with the 1st generation triangular shaped key have this problem. 1st series SLK dashboards simply disintegrate over time requiring replacement. ABC suspension struts have a  high  failure rate and W210's and 211's transmission solenoid boards go bad way too often, the list goes on and on...

And you know the funny thing is that I don't see many BMW's and Audi's with so many electronic glitches as MB's.

Going back to the SLS, in my opinion it is the best design to come out of Sindelfingen in decades. The engine / transmission layout is perfect and every one that has driven the car loves it. Since it is one of those "born as a classic" examples, I'd say it will stand the test of time, also because it is expensive and will continue to be for years to come, therefore whoever own's them will be able to keep them going. The SLS is the only new Mercedes-Benz I would like to own, all the others just don't appeal to me anymore, especially since they are build with a finite life expectancy which translates into too many compromises quality wise.

Just my 0.02...

Tks

Joe

[ziper1221]

I think the only way those computer systems could stick around is if the manufacturers release the software. If they made it open source, enthusiasts could reasonably engineer it into the cars how ever they want. For example, I know of a 20 year old game that the devs released the source code for, and still has a very dedicated (if small) community. However, it was a small dev team, and I really couldnt see the same thing happening with manufacturers.

[ptashek]

However, it was a small dev team, and I really couldnt see the same thing happening with manufacturers.

MB will rather sell whatever last items they have in storage at exorbitant prices, then just cross their arms and put up a NLA sign, rather than release something into the public domain, even if the design is 30+ years old and long obsolete. See ignition amp, cruise-control amp or even the ECU for D-Jet cars. Corporations simply don't get this idea of sharing. It's all about profit.

[jbrasile]

ptashek,

Profit IF you could sell anything... No one, I mean no one will pay US$4k for a steering box... guess what... MB has had dozens of them in stock for years, same goes for the cc amps, D-Jet ECU's etc... I don't see the corporate logic in having inventory that has been completely depreciated sitting in a warehouse taking up space for decades.

One of the worst stories I've heard, and I am not sure if this happens in other parts of the world as well, but MB Brazil has destroyed, that's right, destroyed,  thousands if items including brand new engines, gearboxes, steering boxes, body panels, interior items, windows, etc... for accounting reasons. Everything had to be mangled beyond any hope with a sledge hammer, burned and broken as to become trash and never be used again. Some of the items included Pagoda engines, M117's, M110's,piston sets and the list goes on and on. All of it had been in stk for decades at exorbitant prices...

Tks

Joe

[John Hubertz]

I'm thinking that we are looking at a future that will sharply curtail or eliminate the driving of vehicles without some level of computer control.  It won't be too many more years now where simply driving a vehicle without black box monitoring would be uninsurable for daily driving.

That being said, in the meantime I'd say the situation is pretty bright - so few owners and shops will perform major repairs these days, meaning that the inventory of quality salvage vehicles seems pretty steady.  That plus online access to wrecking yard inventories makes neo-classics (vehicles in the 20 - 40 year old range) more serviceable than any time in human history.

Think about needing a starter gear for a Duesenberg or an Auto-Union in 1970, vs needing a part for any collector car today - think of the near-impossibility of having adequate documentation, parts lists, etc.  I think we are beginning a true golden age for the collector car hobby.

[Tony66_au]

Mercedes in particular wont be viable but most current type cars just wont exist anymore.

A few reasons why but mainly design obsolescence and intricacies that require dealer support that just wont exist anymore.

Even re engine with chev or Ford wont work because although you may mate up the mechanical the electronic wont play ball, a prime example is the Chrysler 300C which is based on the W140 chassis and electronics quite heavily and linked by numerous Lil black boxes all requiring a hard coded Vin number match before they will talk to each other.

The ABS module is infact also the security box and this technology designed as an anti theft device permeates both Chrysler and Mercedes Benz modern cars so it wont be a matter of buying a wreck for spares to keep your pride and joy running.

And as with any electronic device if you leave it without power for long enough it will "Forget" its settings and become an inert mass of rubbish or in effect a Paperweight given a period of time.

Even common garden variety cars from the 90's suffer from amnesia if left unpowered for long enough and although not catastrophic in early examples the later more complex systems just die.

So to repower means a complete driveline swap, a now dead ABS module workaround as well as suspension and sometimes even electronic diff workaround add stability control and all the instruments tied into the system and the propensity for modern plastics to oxidize and perish and these cars are already destined for the scrap heap as shown by the relative low wholesale values of any 90's luxury car.

It wont just be cost prohibitive, it will be technically very difficult.

[Tony66_au]

However, it was a small dev team, and I really couldnt see the same thing happening with manufacturers.

MB will rather sell whatever last items they have in storage at exorbitant prices, then just cross their arms and put up a NLA sign, rather than release something into the public domain, even if the design is 30+ years old and long obsolete. See ignition amp, cruise-control amp or even the ECU for D-Jet cars. Corporations simply don't get this idea of sharing. It's all about profit.

Bosch actually do limited production runs of items as far back as the 70's as well as doing refurb change over units available direct from Bosch specifically for the classic market.

Mercedes are also pretty good re older parts because most manufacturers actually scrap all left over parts or sell them off in bulk after 5 or so years.

Add to this the number or OEM manufacturers still producing parts and its a pretty good deal really, however as cars get more complex they just die off and disappear or so it seems.

I used to see W140's regularly even S500 and S600's although they were rare but thinking back I havent seen one now for nearly a year.

W114, W123, W201 and W124's are thick as thieves as are W126's which are everywhere and I even see the odd 116 and 108 out and about but thats where it stops..........

I find myself learning something new merc wise every damned day and without a good parts supplier and forum knowledgebase id be screwed lol

[JasonP]

And as with any electronic device if you leave it without power for long enough it will "Forget" its settings and become an inert mass of rubbish or in effect a Paperweight given a period of time.

Even common garden variety cars from the 90's suffer from amnesia if left unpowered for long enough and although not catastrophic in early examples the later more complex systems just die.

This is (or was) a big issue in librarian world - how well do electronic texts stand the test of time? Not well at all. Not only do we have the physical decay of electronic media, we also have to have the software to read it. So, in effect, you can put your binary-encoded book in a time capsule and 1,000 years later not only will the the disc or drive be destroyed, but even if you printed those 1s and 0s on paper, you still need the software to read it.

To go further down this road, electronic media is the perfect format for tyranny - it can be changed, manipulated, or wiped out in a moment's notice. The library of Alexandria may have burned to the ground, but the Pharaohs could not sit at their desk and change Plato's Republic to suit their political ends on a weekly basis.

[Squiggle Dog]

One of the worst stories I've heard, and I am not sure if this happens in other parts of the world as well, but MB Brazil has destroyed, that's right, destroyed,  thousands if items including brand new engines, gearboxes, steering boxes, body panels, interior items, windows, etc... for accounting reasons. Everything had to be mangled beyond any hope with a sledge hammer, burned and broken as to become trash and never be used again. Some of the items included Pagoda engines, M117's, M110's,piston sets and the list goes on and on. All of it had been in stk for decades at exorbitant prices...

Being a fan of the Universal (the finned W110/W111 station wagons), I read where a very low mileage W110 200D Universal that was used by The Classic Center as a parts runner was put into storage. A few years later it was put on auction to the employees. No one had an interest in it, so it was driven up onto the compactor and crushed with tons of old inventory.

The same fate is supposed to have happened with a few cars The Classic Center has restored!