W116.org

I am writing this Tuesday and still buzzing from my fun on Sunday! A bit long-winded but I hope there is useful info in here for some and maybe it will motivate others.

There is never enough time to do things as you want and once again I found myself rushing at the end. As indicated last week, I managed to track down an original spec Walker rear muffler/ resonator (made in Denmark!) and had that fitted Saturday morning. No great difference in noise and still very sedate but I could feel it breathing easier and revving a bit cleaner and harder up high where I wanted it. But with a combination of this, sick kids doing exorcist impersonations, trying to help the wife out knowing I was escaping the following day and leaving her with it etc. I found myself in the shed until about 3am. Then after getting cleaned up and to bed, my eldest son came in at about 4am and started explaining in detail his dream about this nasty guy with a gun and superman was there too. So why the hell couldn’t superman fix it and let me sleep!!

Jobs I had to get done included a  sticky door lock which I didn’t think the scrutineers would be happy about (even though after an accident most normal cars they would have problems opening the door and they would still have a better chance of getting a dodgy Benz door open than a good other car!). Also I was cleaning up the remnants of the oil leaks I have fixed. Note Oscar and any other people with leaky cam carrier to head, many weeks down the track and even after a good thrashing around the track, that blue max still hasn’t leaked a drop of oil. The big job I didn’t get done was changing my brake fluid. It was impossible to get my pedal pumper (wife) into the car to help, so I took my fluid etc. with me and hoped for the best.

So off I went in a sleep deprived fluster Sunday morning and as I sped out of the metro area, cruising on the highway, it suddenly hit me again how truly superb car these are, 30 plus years old and it still cruises better than anything else I have.

Got to the track office – where’s your car club membership card and your licence? Don’t have a club membership card  (question for you Andreas why not!) and besides, a receipt wasn’t good enough to get the MSCA membership card, I had to get a personally signed form from the Secretary. But now that I have the prestigious MSCA card, they don’t want to see it, just my club membership card. Don’t you love officials!! As for the licence, I sent all that stuff off and didn’t have anything back. So off he trots and some time later came back, reached about an armlength away and there is an envelope with my name on it and a licence inside. And they decided the card was OK (or maybe because I am the MSCA rep for the club!)

So with frustration vented, I do have to say that none of us would be there having fun without those officials and they don’t even get paid peanuts! They are volunteers that turn up earlier than anyone else so that the rest of us can have fun, so a big thank you to them and I will get better organised next time.

So I’ve jumped the first hurdle and didn’t even expect it to be there. Now for first time scrutineering. It seemed a bit ‘good cop – bad cop’ as it often is but common sense largely prevailed with the checks. I get the nod and the sticker (and I was a little surprised they didn't find at least one thing to pick on, but before I can get in the car the chief scrutineer stops me. He has been busily beavering away in his cams manual and wants the letters on the side of my car, 40mm high by 150mm wide, white on a red background ‘LPG’. I referred him to the clerk of course who I had specifically questioned about requirements for the lpg and also the supp regs that make reference in Item 19a and that Schedules A and B are not applicable, which refers to Schedule G, which refers to the item that he had found.... and therefore not applicable! His response, I can’t let you on the track without it because the fire marshals need to know. My response, regardless of what I think the supp regs say, I have no prob putting the sign on the car in the future, and I would do now if I had one, but I have gone to great lengths to be here and do appropriate checks with appropriate people, and if the reason is the fire marshals knowing, amongst the 100 or so cars here, this is the only lpg car, the only one with lpg diamonds rivetted to the number plate, the only Mercedes, even the only ‘big white car’ here and in their break before competition starts I am happy to show them all specifically the car, valves etc.  His response, it doesn’t work that way!

It just took me back to my days of rallying, where you would see one car next to you get by with something questionable on it while you got pulled up for something stupid and have something important missed. It certainly was one driving force that saw me give it up. I know they are volunteers, I know there is a set of rules that objectively sets a certain number of requirements, and for legal and insurance reasons I am very supportive of that regardless of how hard that makes life for me but where anything is subjective or in this case I still am absolutely sure the supp regs say I don’t need it, then why not give the benefit of the doubt? And not all scrutineers are the same, but for me it always seems there is at least one that thinks the wrong way.

I suggested big white LPG with the ink pen thing they put the numbers on with, right across the rear and side windows, which the other scrutineers thought was a good idea, and after all, that was the reason he gave was that the marshalls wouldn't know. But because the book said a red sign, he would only compromise if the letters were in red. So I trotted off and managed to scrounge up some orange insulation tape for the letters. Not red he says!!! But luckily some bright spark has got a pile of red stickers and put together a lovely lpg for me. Thank you thank you thank you!

Now for an interesting bit, which also demonstrates my failings. In my tired state the night before, I had glued the firewall insulation in a bit where it was coming away and propped an 18 inch or so screwdriver to hold it in place. I drove all the way to Mallala with that under the bonnet and luckily it didn’t fall out and damage something or go through someone else tyre etc. I am a bad boy! When forming up before the practice laps, a benz enthusiast came over and wanted to look at my gas set up under the bonnet and luckily I opened the bonnet and saw it there. So I did have red letters of lpg on my car for safety but it obviously doesn’t matter if a bloody great screwdriver is bouncing around under the bonnet!!

Anyway, enough grumbling - the day did get better! So onto the track, warming up the tyres and brakes and I am pleasantly surprised with how solid it feels as I chuck from side to side on the back straight, not lurching around too much and limited body roll. Brakes felt pretty good too, although they still had quite a bit of bedding in to do having only been on there a couple of days. Starting to throw it harder and harder into corners, I can’t believe how solid and controllable it feels and remains. The chassis is solid and the wheels are obviously being held on the angles they are supposed to be despite all that mass trying to force otherwise. I am pleased with the engine too, revving cleanly and strongly to 6500. Pushing harder and harder I can’t believe how easy it is to hold on to even when you push past the limits on some corner. As good as my Alfa is, I am sure I would have been in the grass a couple of times. I guess it is a longer wheelbase that would account for some of that.

I always knew I loved doing this, but I had forgotten just how much fun it is, just couldn’t stop grinning! Way beyond what I had expected and if anything I couldn’t believe I had left it so long between drinks. I really honestly haven’t felt this good in a long time. Its like a drug. And while I had been working over some apprehensions in my mind about parts of the track and how to deal with them and in this car, as soon as I was out there it all feels so familiar and so safe. I just say that to those that haven’t been out there who might be thinking about doing this, it is nothing like driving quick on a road. No surprises, perfect surface, big wide tarmac, all going the same way, ability to space yourself, plenty of room for mistakes and at worse plenty of run off – it just feels so safe to me and makes me feel invincible, well within reason.

I managed to put together a 1min 44.5 I think it was in practice, not exactly a 1 33 in my Alfa but a good starting point. And while I think I probably had the worst power to weight ratio by a long shot, I wasn’t on the bottom where I thought I would be.

Now to get serious – first run!  I just didn’t want to get tangled up with anyone while learning the car and with us having standing starts, the first lap is always a throw away anyway. Further up the field where the times are closer, it might be a matter of taking off quick so you are not held up later, but as a general rule, I don’t try too hard on that lap. So I let a few cars past and then wound up the momentum from a few corners back off the start/finish. I was still exploring the best line and getting very untidy in spots, which is not quick and at the end of the laps I was only at the same sort of time, but I did notice that I had the legs on the MGB in front and would need to make sure he was behind me or way in front if I was going to put in a quick one for the next run.

Now somewhere in here I have to admit what I have done with the brakes! I had all sorts of advice, some who knew the car better, some that knew the track it was being used on better, some that understood the type of use better. I couldn’t make up my mind, so I went with a relatively cheap option of oem items. Knowing they could be reused on another car if not suitable and knowing I could drive the car within the limits of the brakes and also knowing that a 6.9 left the factory with the same brakes and I hadn’t heard any horror stories about this being a weak point. I will talk about it more later, but with the times I achieved, I didn’t feel any fade from the pads but then I could have braked a lot harder than I did. To get the times down, I think another set of pads will be cheaper and easier than anything else. Some had suggested different discs, but I think I will stick with these ones for now. The standard brakes are very very good in my opinion.

But linked with how hard I used the brakes was the whole fluid thing. My receipts showed the fluid being replace 18 or so months ago, but you never really know. Practice laps I went easy on the brakes just for bedding in reasons, but as I pushed them more in the first run, I was starting to feel a less solid pedal, which remained after things cooled down and hence my feeling the fluid was a problem (ie some of the water in the system had turned to gas). So luckily Paul Charal had turned up so I was under the car and we bled through about 500ml of fluid. What I had done at home was to syringe off the reservoir and refill, but only the rear part of this triangular style reservoir could be accessed (is that right or am i missing something?). So for the rear brakes (the front part of the reservoir!) we bled until it dropped right down to min and then refilled, bleeding through at least 10 pumps each wheel as suggested in the factory manual.

It still didn’t feel quite right I thought, as we took it for a short drive, but it still easily did a 4 wheel lock up and I thought maybe I was just thinking too much and it should be a bit soft.

So second run, I was getting more used to my car and the cars around me, but once again I let some through and I was still worrying about the brakes. It felt pretty good though and as I pushed harder I found myself gathering in the cars in front. By the end of the run I was having a heap of fun with this Alfa 75 and mini. And the times came down too – a 1 42 i think. Apparently there is video of this which I will share once I get a copy.

With a big field there was only 3 runs for the day but the last one was a 6 lapper and that was good having more time getting used to things. I found myself playing with the same cars, but I was really uncomfortable getting too close in the braking areas with my brakes. I was reminded at the end of the straight where I braked earlier to keep away from the others, arriving at the corner slower and therefore being able to exit much faster. I don’t know whether it is my rallying past, but I have a bit of an instinct to brake really late and throw it into a corner too fast and then deal with it – never a quick option regardless of how much fun it is! Back with my Alfa there was an old guy who said to me that now I had my times down, the only way to go quicker is relax, and make it all smoother and sometimes you need to slow down in places to do that…. And he was right.

By the end of it my pedal was very spongy indeed but still easily locked with enough force at the end of the run, so I am sure the problem is in the hydraulics. Still, my time was down to 1 41.09, so not bad for a days work I thought with a new car and first time back for 15 years. Can’t wait to get out there again though!

And the following is my running thoughts on what will help the car

·   Obviously the hydraulics need to be fixed, so I will read up on here about setting up a air bleed and what pressure to set it at for bleeding. I have an old master lid and then I just need to attach an air line fitting to it and adjust the compressor regulator?
·   While I think the brakes are sufficient, with limited hp, and not wanting to get carried away on the motor of my commuter, I think I will grab a set of the QFM’s that have worked so well for Ian and Cam.
·   I didn’t realise tyres were date stamped, but the Yokohama A509s (215/65/14) that are on the 6.5 inch rims are from 2002! So they are working pretty well for a hard old 6yo tyre! There was a certain amount of ‘balling up’/scuffing on them but pretty damn even for a standard suspension set up (top marks Mr Benz!). All that weight is working that tyre pretty hard though so I am not as sure about the C drive Oscar. There is a s series but for an extra 400 or so dollars I am wondering about the advan AO48. These sixes are never going to rip up the track with horsepower, so my feeling is that the tyres and brakes might be the place to spend a few bucks. Anyway, this is my thinking on the run and I need to ask a lot more questions. Will keep you posted. I don’t like changing too many things at once though, so I reckon I will do the next sprint on the same tyres, get the brake hydraulics sorted and see where to next.
·    I started off running the tyres at 42 but I quickly worked out that was not enough and all that weight was really moving around. I went up to 50, thinking that as the upper sort of limit and then back to 48 on the last run, but I am not convinced it wasn’t better at 50. Different tyres will be different though. Shorter side walls and not too wide for the rim I think is a good thing (ultimately aiming for minimising the sidewall flex.)
·   Gearing for Mallala was a bit high. Something for you to think about Cam with your search for a lsd.  I was finding redline in third was hard to get to and didn’t get there on the straight. I started changing up to top at the kink at 5500, being a little easier on the engine and although when I am more consistent I will check the effect, I don’t think it lost anything in time. Grip for me, with my power wasn’t too bad though, particularly with the right clean line in a corner. My first step will be better tyres before looking for a lsd, also hence my thoughts of another $400 for the advans that will help to get the power down through the one wheel. A 6.9 lsd would obviously be way way too high for me and I don’t know if crown wheel and pinions are interchangeable. I have to check my ratio in case the South Africans have put a higher ratio in and there are lower ratios readily available.
·   Also with the gearing, I have a set of 15 x 6.5s lined up and if I go down to a 55, or maybe even a 55 on the 14. I don’t know if you can go even lower on profile on standard rims? For my budget commuter come racer, I don’t want to spend megabucks on new rims. Anyway, lower profile for the track will be a win win with the reduction in sidewall movement and the lower ratio effect.
·   Going a little further, I bet that manual flywheel weighs a bit and could lose a bit. This might help with that revving out and will get there quicker not dragging that wheel around. If it means not hanging on in gears as much on the way home through the hills, I can live with that. But the cruiser ‘spec’ of the car, you would think they would put a good weight flywheel in. Wait until I do a clutch in for that though.
·   One last thing, I ran it without a fan and no probs at all, I had the AC clutch wire unplugged, so when turning on the air, no power drain but the electric fan works. As I crossed the line at the end of the run, I turned the fan on which just helped it before parking it.

But really, I am hard pressed to think of anything else at this stage. After this brief drive, my feeling is that this 6 cylinder car is tremendously balanced in handling and power and is an absolute joy to drive and I imagine in its current form will be tremendously robust. Therefore I am reluctant to change too much. If not using as a commuter, I would seriously look at getting a rusty 280se d-jet donor and transplant the FI. Bit more power and driveability but not over the top and very cheap from the right donor.

Anyway, sorry that is a bit of a rave, but just wanted to share it all, particularly knowing others are headed down this track and the more info we share, the more we can learn and see if it works for us.

And I just got a message from Paul with the first photo attached:

Well done Craig, nice work!  Good write-up as well...

On the subject of scrutineering, one observation I've made is that familiarity eventually wins....  you see in our club's series of events we have the same 3 scrutineers, they've been doing it for years.  You rock up with a new car at its 1st event, and they go bananas over it nit-picking all sorts of little probs.

By the time you've been there for the 3rd or 4th event, the car is well known by the scrutineers, and they only pick only check the safety stuff.  The same goes for regular competitors with a number of cars (like me)... they know I've been doing this super-sprint thing for 20 years now and I can build a club car which will pass scrutineering with my eyes closed.

Which is of course what happened at Sandown in July - they checked a number of things and agreed it passed on all criteria.

Its good to see another W116 racer still in its factory brightwork (bumpers, rust hiders, etc.), not that there's anything wrong with what Cam's doing - in fact he's probably going to be a lot quicker than me thanks to his efforts to remove all that stuff.

If you want I'll keep you advised of when the next Victorian event I'll be using my 450SE in comes up.

Ian.

Thanks Ian

A couple of questions that came to mind on the way home. What rims and tyres are you and Cam running? Also looking at that photo my ride height looks pretty high. It still works so well though. If you have lowered, are there any geometry issues in doing so do you know?

Craig, a fantastic write up, thank you.

Great to read that the Blue max stuff is holding up.  I've yet to buy some and apply it but will.

Scrutineering sounds like fun   Very diplomatically handled Craig, congrats. When you do your homework and ask the right people then still get told your not doing it right it must have been a kick in the guts.  I must remind myself to pack a McGyver bag full of markers and race tape of different colours.  LPG aside I don't think the other two have had any real dramas in the past.  There is the issue with a supplementary bonnet restraint which I've heard the stock set up with cable and two handles either side of the rad grill will do but if you have bonnet pins, they wont ask twice.  Have you got bonnet pins or left it as standard?

It's great to read what you experienced with the handling with so much to take away from those paragraphs.  With the brakes I was wondering how old your hoses were.  In the 350 I changed the front hoses after I developed a leak in one but all along since I've had the car the brakes felt soft.  New hoses up front alone produced a stiffer feel.  Incredible really.  I bought a new set of hoses, generic ones off ebay mind you, from Argentina for a pittance.   Not sure whether I'll put em on Povo yet or not.  Whatever happens I'll soon find any faults on the first one or two outings but I'll use the standard brake pads then buy a set of QFM's too.  Can't really add much to the fluid/bleeding thing.  I am able to up end a full 200ml bottle with thin neck into the reservoir that ensures it stays full whilst I pump through fresh fluid along the whole line.  In the past I had no idea what brand was in use so a colour change at the hub was the best indication of when the newer fluid was making its way through.  A fair bit more would be pumped out after that but I wish I took note of how many pumps it took to competely refill each line.

I'm still tossing up about tyres and wheels.  I so much wanted to put the 15" penta look-a-likes on the 350 purely for show but now I think they should be used on the 280 with better tyres.   A048's would be ideal, the other guys swear by them and there was so many others wearing them at Sandown.  Looking at those s series or s drive they have a 50 series tyre for 15".  I was wondering too that the smaller OD of the tyre would help gearing.  Anyway, I'm still so indecisve it's not funny.  I'll leave tyres at that for the moment.  Although one more thing, I never thought about tyre pressures.  I wonder what the others run.

One more question.  For a standard suspension setup, it was interesting to read how you thought the body roll wasn't too bad and you also state accurately that a 280's not going to be ripping up the tarmac but I'm curious to know whether through the tighter corners the inside rear wheel lifted and spun?

Great race report craig!!  Very detailed, and analytical!

It's funny the stuff you metnion bout scrutineering.. cause with the Hillclimb i enter here in canberra.. I've been doing it for about 9-10months now.  and while the know me and know the car.. now that it's changed so much since the first time I went they were actually were a little more specific on the weekend..  But I think that's only cause of the paint job. 

Good call oscar, gotta go MacGyver on race days.. .I always carry plenty of that ish!


So Craig, 3 secs off your lap times from start to end of day was it?.  That's a good day's work!!


Definitely try and tee up an event in Victoria over the next 12months.. if we plan it in advance, we can try get all 4 track cars there! 


Cam. 

We both run 15x7s shod with Yokohama A032R 225/60-15.  Cams is lowered.  Mine isn't, but will be soonish... I found the handling at the standard height to be acceptable, so my main reason to lower is for asthetics, and to get rid of the SLS setup, and to arrive at the cleaner engine bay because of it.

As far as brake fluid, I just use Castrol Response DOT4, and had my 4 calipers re-kitted.  While it was all apart I let the system completely drain dry, and filled up and started from there.  Bleed from the furthest wheel from the m/cyl back to the closest, I don't even use a bottle... I just get a helper to pressurise the pedal and as soon as a stream of non-airated fluid comes out the bleeder close it and go to the next one.

Ian.

Oscar, with our supersprints, if it is a road registered vehicle it doesn't need it. If you are interested in more info, you can find the supp regs at www.mscasa.com/   With double safety catches and a good working latch and I am smart enough to work out when it goes the right sort of click, I am not that worried about it, but many years ago in an old mini I had a bonnet go up on the road and that is pretty scarey - instant no vision! Less scarey on the track though, no trees or anything to hit before you brake!

Brake hoses look new and receipt for recent replacement but it is a good point to keep in mind and thanks for raising it - collective thoughts help! OEM ones from Autohaus are less than $10 from memory.

From my experience, I really think it fits as a fluid/ bleeding thing, but I have a few weeks to sort it. If it doesn't come good after a bleed one night this week, I think it is best just to rekit the whole lot and be done with it. It was pretty hot and rushed when we bled it at the track. There are too many things on this car that the PO paid good money to get fixed and have been done wrong. There are  dodgy operators out there and maybe they replaced pads, and billed for doing the whole hydraulic system. The old lady would never have known. There are definitely no leaks though or binding.

Inside wheel was really only lifting in a couple of corners and possibly as much as anything from a bad line. Every track is different though and I guess I would suggest getting it there first and then concentrate on upgrades as you go, at least if you are doing it on a budget and then it is fun to see what effect each thing has on your time too.

Cam, where are the likely circuits? With work and family it would not be easy, but would love to do it. Maybe make a bit of a family thing of it? I can google maps the circuits and think about some logistics. Also probably best to have more than one come over but will see how close the other cars will be. Andreas shouldn't be too far away with another white manual 280s. At this stage it looks like it could be the only other W116 but you never know. One is planning on a W123, one W108 which might not be too far off, and 2 guys sharing a car possibly a finnie, possibly a W108. I am hoping Bandolero will be bitten by the bug when he does the come and try event next month and he would definitely be a W116 man.

And Ian, just been to the Yokahama site and either I am and idiot or that is a hopeless site! I am such a whinger hey! The only advan r spec tyre I can see is the AO48, but no reference to tyre sizes or anything I can see. AO 32 is mentioned on a history page, so are these tyres a few years old? Do you know if the advans are all the same heat etc? I would have thought maybe a different compound for a heavy or light car but I can't find anything on their site. I am pretty sure the 48 is around that $250 or so a tyre.

Also 225/60/15 is about 651 OD, so does that give you taller gearing than standard or is that standard? I had a feeling that was standard for W108 and thought maybe W116 is smaller? It all depends on the circuit though and that might suit you. I was browsing through tyre sizes seeing how small I can go OD, but then that is hard to translate to what that means on the track and the other variable of how much extra launch you might get out of a corner. Trial and error is probably the only way, but an expensive exercise!

Next MSCA meeting we are setting our calendar for next year. Would really love for you guys to come over for the 6 hour but it is a long way. Supp regs are still on the website if you are interested to check it out, but I will let you know the date asap just in case. I know there is a 6 hour at phillip island and also winton I think. More track time for the long drive over.

We source our lightly (huh!) used A032R tyres from Targa rally teams as used tyres which have been used for a stage or two, and usually grab them for a few coin.  They are a few years old, but being owned by race teams, well stored in dark environment, and they run like buffed race tyres...  they are good for 2 sprints per set (approx) under a V8 W116.

Sandown and Winton.... my preference is for Sandown, due to the higher obtainable top speeds.  Other Victorian contenders could be Calder Pk and Philip Island.

I.

Aaaah that sounds like an excellent source! I wonder who might run locally here?

Don't know where i'd be without the 2nd hand yokos... 

I prefer Sandown too, my favourite track so far!!  Haven't driven Philip Island or Calder yet though...   Hope to soon.

Cam.