Help! 450SE Distributor Wired Incorrectly!

[brettj]

Hi All,

Tried to install my new green distributor wire and have become totally confused! It seems the someone has messed with the wiring of the distributor so now nothing fits! The current green wire has been cut and spiced with a thin green wire which is connected with the condenser at the left side of the distributor. I can't figure out what goes to what inside and outside of the distributor. Attached are a couple of photos of what I'm talking about.

I tried getting into the service manual library but it doesn't seem to be working today. Does anyone have a diagram of the wiring for the distributor? Any help would be great. Also, did the 75 450SE have a distributor with the condenser outside or inside of the distributor cap? Is my  distributor even the correct part for my car?

Thanks,

Brett

[TJ 450]

Yes it looks like someone has done a dodgy there. I doubt that condenser should be outside the distributor housing. I'm sure oscar will have something to say about it.

Tim

[oscar]

Indeed I do  

Haven't got the manual in front of me brett but I remember reading that the condensor can be dispensed with if the points with the black and white stripe is used.  Something like that.  Have a look below.  It's my setup on the 350.  Green wire straight to points, no condensor.  Hope that helps.

[brettj]

Thanks for the replies!

Oscar,

A little screw came with my new green wire which looks like it belongs some where in the distributor housing itself. Is there a bracket on the side of he distributor that clamps down the green wire? If so, how do you hook it up?

Brett

[brettj]

Yes, Oscar I think you are correct about not needing a condenser. I had called the classics center on this particular wire and I do remember them saying that the green wire serves as a condenser. It must be the little black plug that does the job.  Great! Thanks for the help!

Brett

[brettj]

Sorry another question here. Oscar, I just noticed your green wire doe not have a black ground wire connected to it or it seems that way in the picture. In examining my green wire, it has the black ground wire. Do I place the ground wire outside of the distributor or somewhere inside?

Brett

[oscar]

Damn, my car's at work now and I can't check it again till tomorrow.  It would seem that screw is to attach the black wire.  But where does the black wire go - is it for the condensor or is it supposed to attach to the distributor's body   I can't answer that one yet sorry.

Here's an extract from the text.  In bold it says to replace the points with a type with shielded control line without the capacitor (condensor) which is identified with black and white stripes.  There's also a pic of where a condensor should go.  It's very hard to see but in that picture of the distributor which is repeated many times in the manual there seems to be another wire (black wire) attached like yours but it's impossible to tell where it's attached in the pics.

[oscar]

I've just been out to look closely at my green wire and I can't tell if there ever was a black wire attached to it or not.  I still reckon it's a shielding wire attached to the distributor, but that's still a guess.  My green wire does seem to have double insulation which the outer is missing near the black grommet.  Really can't tell if there was a wire coming out of there though. 

Hopefully someone else with a d-jet distributor can confirm where that black wire is supposed to go.

One more thing - back to that warm engine idle stall problem.  As you know I've developed something similar which came back over the past week big time.  I'd have to drive with two feet to keep revs up whilst braking just before the car stops.  Anyway, I've adjusted a few valves which quietened the engine but still no improvement with the warm idle.  Like yours, the warm idle screw adjustment didn't lift the revs as much as it should've and regardless what I did, the car would stall or nearly stall with the engine loaded and brake applied.  I was getting a bit jack with it and thought I'd check the timing again.  I set it at just before 10degress BTDC at idle with both vacuum hoses applied.  It does not have this stall problem anymore.  I did this over the weekend and wanted to test it a few times making sure the engine got hot before I put it through some combined turning and braking whilst reversing manuveurs that would normally make the engine stall.  I know I've mentioned timing before and although it's working for me I don't know if it's the cause of your issue or not but put some more advance on it to see if it helps.

A closer look at my green wire.

[koan]

Do all D-Jet equipped engines have the normal Kettering setup with points in the ground side of the coil?

Or do some them have transistor ignition where the points just trigger the module rather than switch the ignition coil primary current?

That would explain why there's no condensor, it wouldn't be required with the transistor setup.

koan

[13B]

As I understand it, a 280S is the only car with a traditional kettering ignition requiring a condensor.  (Oscar has two of these.)

D-jet engines (1973-1975) have a transistorised setup that "looks" like a kettering system but isn't - the points are a triggering device but don't carry a high current, and don't wear-out like traditional points do.  You still need to set the dwell on these into its "sweet spot" to inform the transistor unit to charge the coil for the optimum amount of time, so these ones still need to be gapped correctly and checked from time to time - so its easy to think its a plain kettering system, even though its not... (I have one of these, my 450SE)

K-jet engines (1976 onwards) have a full electronic setup which has no points and requires no regular adjustment, other than the timing from time to time after high milages. (I have one of these also, my 6.9).

I.

[oscar]

13B, whilst looking at the milan brown 280's kjet distributor to check it's green wire which is different to mine and brett's pics above, I discovered it had breakerless ignition.  Could this distributor be used on a 280S or is it useless without the full transistorized setup?

[13B]

I'm guessing if you compared the wiring diagrams of the 280S / 280SE K-jet you could fit the later dizzy and amplifier box for a fully transistorised setup.

Bear in mind the following, esp. if the upgrade is difficult or expensive...

When I started with 13B rotary engines we found that the kettering ignition, in top condition (new points/condensor, correctly gapped and timed) made the same HP up to the 7000rpm redline as having an electronic ignition installed.  However, with the big bridge ported and peripheral ported race engines the points system would let the side down after 8000rpm, which is a serious problem if the engines were built to rev to 10,000.  Basically if Povo revs out well to its 6500rpm redline with the stock points, it might not be that much better with the transistorised setup.

I.

[koan]

I'm thinking the transistor switching modules can't be the same, the points triggered versions must have a different input circuit to the later K-Jet magnetic rotor version.

In the rotary engine the rotor is going round at 1/3 the shaft RPM and firing 3 times every revolution of the rotor so at 7000 RPM the plug fires 7000 times a minute. A 6 cylinder engine at 7000 RPM is firing the plugs at 21000 times a minute, asking a lot more of the ignition system.

koan

[brettj]

Oscar,

Thanks for checking your green wire set up for me. I'm going to try installing the new green wire and attach the black ground wire, I guess it's a ground wire, to the outside of my distributor. Do you think I could cause some damage if that's not where the ground wire should be?

I thought I had my warm stall problem solved. I changed all of the change over valves and the relays that are located in the kick panel on the drivers side. After changing those parts the car ran smoother and did not stall. When I took the car out on Monday the stall started again but only did it a couple of times. I noticed that each time I moved the green wire there was no stall.  Also on Monday I noticed that the motor stopped running smoothly and started to shimmy a bit at idle. I think that because the green wire is not properly hooked up that the switching unit is not able to send correct signals causing a loss of spark causing the stall and now the poor idle. My mechanic still feels that my new air slide from MB is bad but 13b mentioned that the points can control the effectiveness of the air slide making me think that the distributor is cause of all of my problems.

Well, I'll let you all know what happens after I replace the green wire.

Brett

[brettj]

Hi All!

Installed the new green wire on Saturday. I've been driving the car for the last several days to see if the warm start stall issue was  solved by the wire replacement. So far the car has not stalled but now the motor has a slight rough idle. At times, like when you stop at a light you can feel the motor shake. I guess you should call it a sputter. Should the timing be reset after installing a new distributor wire? I'm not sure where to go on this issue, any ideas?

In regard to the black ground wire on the new green wire. All I did was screw it to the outside of the distributor. The rotor cap fit right over the wire and screw.

Brett