Dealer Malfeasance

[wbrian63]

My sister sent her car to the dealer for some warranty work. While it was there, she asked that the oil be changed.

She sent one of her employee's to pick up the vehicle as she was out of town when it became ready.

They drove it about 10 miles back to her office. At some point on the return trip, the engine began to rattle, and for whatever reason, the employee continued to drive it. As he pulled in to the office lot, the engine stopped and could not be restarted.

A check of the oil dipstick revealed no oil in the engine.

They called the dealer who sent a service tech over. Apparently the drain plug was missing... He put oil in the motor and drove it back to the dealership. They've just called sis and told her that her vehicle is ready for pickup and that nothing is wrong.

It's not a MB, but that shouldn't matter.

I'm thinking they're trying to pull a fast one. Any engine driven without oil long enough to stop, I would think should have seized and not have been restartable. Regardless, if it was low enough on oil to have knocked and stopped, there should be internal damage.

I'm thinking new engine, the dealer is thinking otherwise, so it seems.

What are my sister's options at this point?

I'm thinking she may need to retrieve the vehicle and get an oil analysis done, and possibly some exploratory surgery on the engine to check the state of the main bearings and other moving parts. Those costs will be out of her pocket, I understand.

If she goes to get it, I think she needs to bring a letter for the service manager to sign acknowledging the previous incident and that she is going to get a 2nd opinion as to the possible damage to the vehicle, and that they will be held liable if damage is detected.

Once she picks the vehicle up, without some acknowledgment of the dealer that they're on the hook, they could claim that the damage was done after she retrieved it...

Any suggestions?

[s class]

If the oil level was indeed that low, and if the story about the missing drain plug is true, then I would be very surprised if there isn't significant damage. 

The law is not as simple as what's right and what's wrong - so get as much as possible in writing, and hopefully you have a lawyer buddy who can advise you what to do.  If you don't have such a friend, it may be money well spent to pay for a quick 30 min consultation with a lawyer, to make sure you don't do anything at this stage that would jeapordise your chances of getting reparations later on.

What happended to good old fashioned honesty, like a dealer saying "we are terribly sorry, we have made a mistake, and will remedy it at our cost"  If they did that, the customer would be sure to tell everyone, and it would actually amount to reasonably cheap advertising.   

[TJ 450]

That's a difficult situation.

If the engine was run without oil for that distance, it would have almost certainly been destroyed. Also, there would be no oil pressure, so the oil light would be permanently lit. That doesn't leave many excuses for the techs, other than the fact that it was their gross negligence.

This sort of occurrence calls for the advice of a legal professional, otherwise it could get messy.

Tim

[wbrian63]

Thanks for all the quick replies.

I've spoken with my sister and she's already been on the phone with her lawyer.

Told her under no circumstances should she just retrieve the car without formally notifying the dealership that their liability for any repairs that may be required does not lapse with her taking the car from their possession.

The lawyer will know best how to put this in enforceable language.

Also told her to make it clear that if repairs are required that they should provide her a rental car of "like quality and capacity". The vehicle in question is a loaded-to-the-gills Dodge Aspen, which is a full-size SUV equivalent to a Ford Expedition or GMC Yukon. Don't want her winding up in a sub-compact for the several weeks it will likely take to resolve this issue.

Again - thanks for the quick replies. I'll post more when I know more.

Regards

[wbrian63]

Update:

Spoke with my sister yesterday and got some more details. I was particularly interested as how her employee could have made it the long distance home and only have difficulty in the last few yards.

The route home is mostly freeway - 65mph the whole way. You exit the freeway and turn left at the signal, going under the overpass - go about 150 yards to another signal where you turn left again. Sister's place is about 1/4 mile down after that 2nd left.

Her worker said as he pulled to a stop at the first signal, he heard a "ping" noise under the vehicle, but attributed it to road debris. He only sat at the first light for 1 or 2 seconds before it changed. He made the left and sat at the 2nd light for most of the light cycle - maybe 30 or more seconds. Turned left again, and as he had the business in sight, he heard the engine noise and noticed the low oil warning light. As he pulled into the lot, the vehicle died.

Upon inspection in daylight, you can clearly see a line of oil that starts just shy of the first signal, follows the path of the vehicle to the 2nd signal, where there's a big puddle of oil, and continues onwards to the business where it trails off to nothing just before the entrance.

So - we know what happend, and why.

On Saturday, once back home, sister calls the dealership to talk about the vehicle with the service manager. She's a bit like me - prone to calling a turd a turd, so she was under scrutiny by my brother-in-law. "Be nice" says he - let's just see what they have to say. "Don't worry ma'am, there's nothing wrong with your car. You don't need to worry your pretty little head ma'am" etc. etc. Lori feels she's being shined-on, so she says "I think I'll just let you talk to my husband" and hands Jay the phone. He gets a similar delivery, but now it's guy-to-guy, so there's no "pretty little head" crap. Jay says, well, your assurances are all well and good, but under the advice of my attorney, I think we'll take the car to another location for a second opinion.

At this point, the character of the conversation took a different turn. "Fine, if you don't believe me, you can take it somewhere else... If they discover there's damage, we'll reimburse you for any charges incurred up to $500"... "So, when you gonna come get your car?!?!"

They've since retrieved the car and taken it to the mechanic that handles all their non-warranty work. Lori said he's not certain he'll find anything easily, as they've "probably changed the oil 3 or more times already trying to flush all the metal out". I told sister that she should get a sample of the oil and send it off for a metalurgical analysis. If there's bearing damage, the damage will get worse and worse, and you should be able to detect the excess metals in the oil, even if they've flushed it repeatedly. The vehicle's only got 30k miles on it, so any elevated levels of particulate metal would indicate damage.

I also suggested that even if the mechanic doesn't find any damage, they should serve the dealership with legal notice that if at any point in the lifetime of the vehicle during their ownership, should any failure occur inside the motor that could be related to this event that they will be on the hook for the entire cost of repair - warranty be damned.

If properly maintained, even a US-made engine block should be able to handle 200k miles with no rebuild required to the bottom end. You might need some valvetrain work - seals being the most likely issue, but you shouldn't need crank or connecting rod bearings, rings, valve guides, rocker arms, valve lifters, cam bearings, etc. The problem will be proving it to a jury, because that's were the whole mess will most likely wind up. This is a good-old overhead valve American V8. If properly cared for, it should run for 200k miles +.

The "good thing" about the US court system in situations like this is that if you sue in civil court and your prevail, the defendant has to cover your attorney fees and court costs. But you still have to sue...

[s class]

Thanks for the update Brian, I'm finding this intriguing.  Where on earth do they get the $500 liability limit?  Either they were in error, or not. and the evidence in this case suggests the former. 

Many years ago, before I had the determination and knowledge to do my own car repairs, I had my W116 280SE engine rebuilt by an experienced back-yard guy in the neighbouring town, 75km away.  In retrospect, I think he really is good - he just made a mistake.  I picked up the car, to drive the 75km home.  Because it was a newly rebuilt engine, I was driving very gently, and that may have been the saving grace in this instance.  I got home, having watched temp and oil pressure all the way (all healthy), and then used the car to drive another 15km to drop off the friend that had helped me fetch the car.  On the return trip, I noticed the oil pressure guage momentarily dip off the 3-bar peg a couple of times while driving at 40 to 50km/h.  Only about 3 blocks from home, I had to wait at a traffic light, and noticed the oil pressure at 1-bar, sometimes dipping to almost zero.  This was when I became really concerned.  Given that I was so close to home, I drove the remaining blocks gently (no real traffic to speak of), with the oil pressure just above 1 bar, while cruising.  Back at home, I checked the oil level and found the dipstick dry.  I threw in about 1 litre of oil that I had on hand, and only then did it just just reach the bottom of the dipstick - not the min mark, the bottom of the dipstick.  Conclusion - there had been almost zero oil left in the  engine. 

On examination, it turns out that there was a bolt missing in the upper (large) sump, and unfortunately this bolt hole went through into the inside of the pan, in line with the oil pump drive chain.  In the 100-odd km I had driven, the engine had steadily pumped out all its oil.

We removed the filter, inspected it and found all good.  It seems I stopped just in time.  Its all history now - I've done 220 000km since the rebuild and nothing untoward, but I assure you, I was stressed at the time. 

And people wonder why I started doing all my own repairs.....

[wbrian63]

As I understand it, the $500 was an offer to cover their out-of-pocket expenses for the 2nd opinion.

For me, that's just talking down your sleeve. IF the 2nd opinion turns up problems, the dealer's likely to say - "well, that's his OPINION"...

We shall see how it turns out.